Not a fanboy you just cant argue with consistency.
Orcs and Scourge 2.0 been killin’ and havent much else to their name. Warcraft 1-2, Draenor before, MOP, Cata, WOD, BFA. Aligns with guys like Majin Buu enough
Orc culture is Klingon culture.
Blood Elf culture is Romulan culture.
Goblin culture is Ferengi culture.
That is all you need to know.
Sorry I don’t know Starwars.
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Yes, it clearly does fit. You just said there are people with that view - and then you say it doesn’t fit?
Self-serving sanctimony is among the reasons people bemoan Sylvanas - on both factions - as you say. Of course, it is not the only reason. But it is a popular one on the forums.
Many Orc players feel their favored race’s history of evil is honorable when compared to Sylvanas and her direction. Calling others evil serves their purpose: that their favored characters are based on redemption and honor - especially in comparison.
Many Alliance posters have wanted to kill Sylvanas for claiming Lordaeron to begin with. Much less Gilneas and Teldrassil. She was evil to them before BfA or Teldrassil. Calling the Horde under her evil is just an extension of their hate-fandom.
To claim “the Horde is evil” is a lack of perspective or self serving sanctimony. As I said.
Having emotions is intended. Yes. Emotions don’t always equate to blanket morality judgements.
They can lead to blanket morality judgements - but those are usually rash and vary greatly between individuals.
That is their individual emotion - and hardly some objective standard that leads to universal agreement.
If you are claiming “The Horde is evil” is a blanket morality judgement based on emotion - then it is borne out of context in the person’s head.
It is not in the narrative that we all play in and enjoy.
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Doesnt fit as an alternative view to saying Sylvanas was villain batted.
I think she is a villain in the sense she now stands against everything she stood for in Warcraft 3 and WoW pre-cataclysm.
Yes. Even from a Forsaken perspective who isn’t worshiping her as a goddess.
This would fit under :
Since villain batting is an opinion. It is not something the narrative, or even Blizzard has mentioned.
For now, in the narrative, she is an unsavory character with ulterior motives.
Malganis is a villain. Azshara is a villain. Guldan was a villain. The narrative was clear.
Suggesting Sylvanas is being given the “villain bat” is also mere opinion derived from the narrative. Not in the narrative. And it’s a guess at the most.
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For that to be true she would have display good and evil behavior.
I fail to see how she has exhibited any heroic action after Wrath of the Lichking expansion.
She isnt even an anti-hero tbh. Id expect more nuance from Dick Dastardly than her.
Are you suggesting the lack of good acts makes one evil? Or that good acts can balance evil acts? I dont agree with that logic.
People can be detrimental to society, or apathetic, and still not be evil.
However, that is also an opinion. I could list actions I saw as heroic.
Stormheim (simultaneously working against Odyn with Helya while sending us to be friendly with him is typical Sylvanas. Playing both ends as needed). She risked her life.
Saving Voljin and the Horde from the Broken Shore.
Leading an assault on Durotar in SoO was pretty heroic.
The BfA cinematic, if that’s canon.
In A Good War, she turns the tide in many fronts. She is on the ground fighting often, actually.
She might have crazy plans - but she is on the ground beside her forces, seeing it through.
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This is consistent with the storyflow since Cata at least.
It’s also malarkey because she’s always been sketchy at best since the first day WoW came online.
The difference between now and then is that now she’s in charge.
The problem is the Horde most of us signed up for as players isn’t the same as Sylvanas’ version of the Horde because the Horde was never sold to us like this, but apparently most of the NPCs don’t have that same problem (or don’t have the guts to do much about it).
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I don’t think that’s true since the horde began in wc1 as a villain faction and has progressivly gotten less antagonistic over the series. Thralls horde was the 3rd horde more or less and anyone who joined wow in CATA likely appreciated Garrosh’s horde.
I liked Ogrims horde best and wanted to see it with garrosh, but he went full racist in MOP and ruined it.
I enjoy all the forsaken questline and have always liked sylvanas, but the way she is acting now is not just dark and ruthless. It’s contrary to any logical or strategic value for the sake of hurting the enemies moral? I don’t think anyone fully understands her motives or ideals because it’s all over the place contradicting itself.
The alliance will never accept us! Let them accept this forsaken assassin in so he can kill them in their sleep!
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in defense of sylvanas (you will never hear me again saying this)
maaaaybe she can manipulate the emotions of the proudmoores torturing him to the point where they HAVE to act to save him regardless if is a trap or not because they want to save him or end his suffering.
of course that would imply that they remove the brain cells of them to let him get close enough and let him kill them.
because apparently, is the only way to defeat the alliance.
using empathy against the alliance, is kinda poethic.
i am just praying that this don’t ruin completely the alliance side ![:pray:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/pray.png?v=6" ":pray:")
depending on how is done.
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The issue with the writing is the horde virtues are being ignored for it’s vices, and the alliances vices are being removed.
Dwarfs used to be imperialistic, Humanity used to be filled with classist nobles who didn’t give a damn about the plight of the poor, night elves used to be traditionalist to a fault. those Problems have been slowly being removed, while the positive aspects of the horde races have as well (The forsaken were sociopathic, but had loved ones and for the most part just wanted to be left alone and fight the scourge. Orcish honor is so undefined it is a useless buzzword. Goblins used to have their members actually care about each other, and while shrewd businessmen, ultimately a helpful part of the world)
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I think the big disconnect between Blizz and a lot of the players is in viewing the importance of the Warchief position. Blizz views them as clearly different while a lot of the players view Warchief = Horde.
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It’s kinda a lose-lose for the horde. If the alliance accept him and he gets a kill which sets off the kultirans to be full evil with 100% justification we lose. If he is not accepted and killed on sight we lose. If it somehow tips the scales of the war it’s winning with dishonor and justifies all of saurfangs rebellion.
But the bigger concern for me is why it’s even in play. It’s like burning the tree, we gained nothing from that. Breaking an enemies moral was only of value when we were trying to occupy their city. The idea that it’s going to piss off the elves enough to split apart the alliance is a hail marry she didn’t even need to make.
I hear a lot of alliance upset they are being made to look dumb just to let the horde win, but it’s just as bad from my perspective. Derp finish off malfurion saurfang, the old honorbound orc I know will eventually turn on me.
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Or maybe the reason we believe they are being villain batted is because we players DO know how to read (swomething apparently above the skills of the current lore team at Blizz HQ).
The whole thing is an incoherent mess for both factions, period.
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Let’s not forget Genn “Cursed with Rage” Greymane admitting that the Forsaken were actually a pretty great bunch of lads all things considered.
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Being amoral is conventionally considered being “evil.” Amorality is lacking sense of right and wrong. We can’t blame an entity (like animals) for lacking the sense, but we can identify the state of being amoral as morally “wrong” and dangerous for our civilization.
The Horde at large is “moral.” Outside of some Forsaken who seemingly cannot comprehend morality since being raised, and perhaps some Goblins who have a society with no-to-low moral values, most Horde characters and races do have a sense of right and wrong.
It’s one of the better design decisions by this franchise to drop the Good Vs Evil dichotomy of WC1/2 and shift to an egalitarian message in WC3, that treated traditional fantasy monster races like Orcs and Trolls as having the same capacity for thought and emotion as the traditional “hero” races like Humans and Dwarves. It’s allowed the story to have more complexity, nuance, and depth.
Blizzard has simply lost sight of that vision because early BFA is more about the personal story of a couple lead characters than it is about the Horde maintaining a consistent identity.
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