Master loot

Master loot, a topic where a decent portion of cutting-edge and more casual mythic players agree and disagree, on top of the developers giving their philosophy prior. That said, I thought this would be a topic to bring up, in part due to a recent statement based on external player buffs by Sigma,
One of the most difficult aspects of this topic is social tension. Sometimes people argue with their teammates about buffs. It’s very understandable, to me, why one possible response someone might have for that is–this can put you at odds with your own groupmates, so stamp it out. The flip side of that is: this is part and parcel of playing with real people in a large cooperative group. And preserving the human element of group play in WoW, not boiling it down to predictable mechanical interactions, is an important value. See for example, the common lament that group-finder content has lost a lot of the human interaction from the experience. Mechanics that involve interacting with groupmates bring out both the good and the bad of that, and that might be better than having neither." As well as revisiting a topic where there may be a philosophical change.

What is master loot? A system where when you defeat a boss, a designated player can distribute all pieces of loot to their raid/party that a boss drops. As opposed to personal loot, when you defeat a boss, loot is randomly distributed among X amount of players in your raid/party.

What is my argument? Master loot was a system where it gave organized guilds more control over the loot that dropped and allowed you to distribute the loot based on a multitude of reasons to help your team become stronger, you were most likely rewarded for how long you were in a guild, a strong performance or simply just it is a massive increase for one class and worthless for another. Currently during progression, if you loot a piece of gear you have no agency on what happens to it, no matter if it’s an upgrade or downgrade, you either equip it for a second so that slot can be traded or you keep it because it’s an upgrade. There is no helping the other players on your team with loot, because that choice was taken away.

What was Blizzard’s argument? Master loot was removed to help deter split running. It felt bad for someone to kill a boss and have to give loot away/get no loot. This argument back then was contested, but now we have actual experiences to show that’s not entirely true. For the individual, you will still not get loot just like before, guilds that wanted to control loot to a degree and still utilize the outside source of RC Loot council, but some guilds choose NOT to use RC Loot council, and if they do there’s an option that is extremely popular that lets YOU decide if you wish to trade your piece of loot. So why is the last part important? Because guilds as a whole can decide to utilize a master loot system if the players agree with a more structure-based loot system or a pure RNG system they can. The group can decide as a whole which type of system they wish to use, just like they do now to an extent.

Breaking down Blizzard’s argument, if we look at split runs, it did not hurt them whatsoever and has only made them much worse in comparison. As very competitive guilds will do split-runs no matter what and will do everything they can to achieve the best possible results. Outside of them, Master loot is not only a top 0.1% option. There are a multitude of reasons a group would want master loot as well as why another group wouldn’t. But that’s where the social dynamic comes in and what suits each player and group best, groups CAN AND SHOULD decide on their own.

Master Loot in legion didn’t affect non-guild groups as they couldn’t enable it, players were able to decide within their guild how they wanted their loot handled. So why take the option away? In competitive raiding or even cutting edge raiding there exist groups where you want your TEAM to do the best it can, you are working as a single unit to defeat the bosses. Controlling loot allows a much healthier dynamic in organized runs. It does not feel good to get a piece of gear that I know is worthless, especially early on in progression, and I have 0 agency in being able to give it to someone whom I know it’s an upgrade for. I disagree with the notion of taking options away from players.

On the contrary, master Loot is not without issues, as you can get loot drops for a weapon/armor type, not even in your run but that’s not unique to any system.

So what am I proposing? I believe Legions Master Loot system was the healthiest version of a master looting system as it provided players with the options of Personal Loot as we currently have or Master Loot, and the only way to turn on Master Loot was to be in a near-full guild group. This allows organized guilds to have more loot control so their players can feel more rewarded and it supports the idea of a TEAM of players working together to defeat bosses. It allows guilds who wish to keep the current system to use that same system, and we have seen this currently happening with RC Loot. Taking away options and player choice is what got us to many problems with the current game, and even if you disagree with Master Loot as a system, do you disagree with systems that create more player engagement and choice?

I do wonder if anyone has experiences or opinions on the matter? As I have seen players from all different levels of raiding both support and disagree with the idea of a Master Loot system coming back for organized guild runs.

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This is a topic I’ve also considered bringing up, as a guild master and raid leader in my own community.
It feels good to get loot, always has, always will. It’s why we raid: To kill stuff and get stronger to kill it faster next time.
It feels really bad when you desperately need an item, another person of the same class gets it for whom it’s either not an upgrade or a marginal increase and they can’t trade it because it’s a higher ilvl than what they already have. It feels bad.

I think this is key. There’s too many YouTube videos of ninja-looting montages going around. Full guild groups should be able to decide how they do loot, and there would be a lot of guilds (like mine) who may just use it and still roll gear off! But at least then there is the OPTION to give it to someone who really needs the item. It allows the team to work together in a more cohesive way.

We saw this exact effect with Domination gear. Let me paint a picture for you. It’s July 2021. Sanctum of Domination is but a few weeks old. Your guild has cleared normal and now working on heroic. Your group has two balance druids. One got the 226 domination helm, the other still has their 213 from last tier. All of a sudden, the one with the 226 gets a 239! So exciting! Its a great upgrade. But, from a progression standpoint it makes infinitely more sense to give it to the other balance druid so they can get their unholy domination set activated as well. But this option does not exist with Personal Loot.

This is a choice that groups can make. A choice that guilds can make. Player choice is a good thing.

I would also like to suggest that if Master Loot is added back to the game that any groups using the group finder tool should show what the loot type is. The biggest problem with master loot is guild groups that have a few pugs. Those few pugs will NEVER get loot unless absolutely no one needs it. This will effectively kill 18-19 man guilds who need to add a person or two to raid mythic. No one will join the group with a 0% chance at loot.

Therefore my other suggestion is that for Master Loot to be enabled it requires a FULL guild group. No exceptions. But again; this suggestion is not without issues as there are numerous communities that often run together that may wish to take advantage of Master Loot. I’m not sure what the answer is for these communities.

Basically, I would love to see ML reinstated for guild groups, but I do think it needs to be a FULL guild group, else pugging for your guild will be dead.

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I really dislike personal loot because you already share gear with guildies anyway, why should I not be able to trade a garbage item that happens to be bis for someone else? Right now if it’s an ilvl upgrade you’re stuck with the item even if you will never use it. It’s insane how much loot goes to waste early in the tiers.

On the flipside I can see why people in pugs hate master loot so I agree that legion did it best.

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All of this. 100%. Small sidegrades that are 3 ilvls higher than your M+ trinket so you can’t trade but 9 people in your group want it feel soooo bad.

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I think what I found most baffling at the time of it’s removal was that you had the option to use master loot if you met the requirements, but did not have to. It was an extra option for people to use, and that choice was taken away.

As a healer in a higher end raiding guild I loved masterloot. Loot for me is a tool to enable progress with, and it should be given to the person who gains the raid the most benefit(So, not healers). Did it not feel good to get an item? Of course, but we had several months to get everyone whatever they desired, I knew I’d get that fancy trinket eventually.

Now with personal loot we basically run the same system: We still have a loot council, we still trade gear to the biggest beneficionary, except now it’s only gear we can trade.

The only thing this change has done for me is add a ton of frustration, it didnt solve splits, didnt solve any already almost non existent loot drama, nor did I ever feel pressured into giving loot up(In fact, I feel bad I cant trade something several times a tier now). Evaluating several years later, how does blizzard feel about the removal of master loot? Do they feel it has achieved the goals the change was supposed to?

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I think this is a great question I would also love to have an answer to.

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I delved into this topic slightly in another thread:

Something to also consider, with forced personal loot it means that shared item slots have a higher frequency of being found and unique with a lower (even with armor stacking).

This expansion will be the first one where all slots are available.

In BfA you had a locked cloak + neck, so only rings were shared.
In Shadowlands there are no locked slots.

This mean that everyone can loot rings, clocks, necks and because everyone can get them they statistically have a higher chance of popping up. You can’t do anything with them as well as after a few weeks into a tier you really want a piece of loot from a boss and watch the raid loot 4 rings (for what could be multiple weeks in a row).

The amount of loot waste has increased this expansion, this in combination with the total amounts of loot being reduced from all sources is not a good recipe.

Master Looter didn’t have this particular issue, but it did have the issue of getting loot that nobody could use (example: looting bows but having no hunters).

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Yes.

Personally, I would rather see an item drop that no one can equip, than an item that no one needs because we already have 10 of them.

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I did notice in one of the latest interviews, Master loot was brought up as a topic and there seemed to be an openness to more loot options as we’ve seen how much of in my opinion a failure global personal loot has been, especially with systems such as tier being introduced.

While I do believe the Legion system of loot trading was the best(Non-guild groups forced PL, guild groups could decide on loot), that is just in my experience. Current personal loot has been extremely frustrating to participate in. Mythic raids especially are meant to be a group of players working together to overcome obstacles, yet when it comes to the largest system in progression to be completely out of the groups hands still makes no sense to me.

Personally, I would rather see an item drop that no one can equip, than an item that no one needs because we already have 10 of them.

This is the most true statement, loot should NEVER feel bad. No one wants to spend 300 pulls to then hear “I can’t trade this ring that has useless stats” or “I can’t trade this tier piece and my class doesn’t use it.”

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