Marksmanship Hunter Talents WAY too expensive

Classes Hunter
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Before Reading, I recommend pulling up the MM hunter tree so that you can follow what I’m conveying - Dragonflight Talent Calculator - 10.0.0 Beta (wowhead.com)

Not only are the talents expensive but we have Talents that are gated behind weird choices making the MM tree feel even more taxing.

Examples,

  • You need Bullseye to grab Wailing Arrow. Very little synergy being that Wailing Arrow is on a 1 min cd. That’s an auto 3 points invested.

  • You need to grab Rapid Fire or Lonewolf + Streamline, Deathblow or Rapid Fire Choice node (which is AFTER Streamline??) to grab Multi-Shot and Trick Shots for basic AoE. That’s an auto 5-6 points.

  • You need Volley OR Steady Focus to grab Trueshot?? Why do I need Volley which is a potentially Heavy Damage Talent to gain access to Trueshot? Trueshot should come before them. That’s an auto 2-3 points.

  • You need Focused Aim to grab Bursting Shot and Quick Load. While Focused Aim is not a bad prerequisite to Bursting Shot the fact that you need to dump 4 points just to get Quick Load is mind-boggling.

These Mandatory prerequisites make the tree feel more expensive than it already is.

Multi-Shot and Trick Shots should be higher in the tree so that they can be our basic AoE and gain access to it at all times. Then further enhance AoE if you want to specialize in it. But these prerequisites just feel horrible to invest points in because they are mandatory in a backward sense.

Rapid Fire should be moved and in its place should be Multi-Shot. This alone makes it obvious that the left side is to further your AoE. Instead, we have Rapid Fire or Lonewolf as the start of the AoE Side.

The MM tree is obviously split to either going ALL IN ST or ALL in AOE but no in-between if you want to take advantage of our Capstones. This alone will have MM Hunters needing to switch builds way too often. We ASLO have ST Talents on the left and we have damaging increasing talents for AoE on the right side.

The Capstones are another issue that can be saved for another thread but I’m not lol.

The only Capstone that feels good to go in on is Salvo. Actually, the whole left side after investing 20 points is honestly pretty good. But WITHOUT A DOUBT the True Shot capstones are unattractive not because of it’s perk talent choices themselves but because you sacrifice so much in order to get them. Hell, they gave Enhancement Shamans the solution to what Trueshot needed for years - Thorim’s Invocation to remove the wasted Precise Shots.

The exact same can be said about Legacy Of The Windrunner and it’s capstone WHICH IS A PASSIVE to another PASSIVE with absolutely NO synergy with the entirety of the MM Spec AND it also costs 3 points total. As A final capstone…

It is still unnerving that we’ve had a complete damage kit (ST & AoE) baseline for FOREVER now and yet in DF we have to choose between things we’ve always had access to in order to specialize into something. As is we can’t have it otherwise when we already did, for years.

Lonewolf is out of place and it costs 1 point. If you want it then you can’t have a capstone or a talent that brings synergy to our rotation.

If we look at other popular trees right now they have synergy on synergy. The routes you follow are intuitive and make total sense. You have new and old popular/fun talents sprinkled about, adding to the synergy.

Marksmanship is, ST or AoE. The new stuff have been unpopular for years. Old Stuff? Yeah right. The routes you follow are frustrating because they literally make you say out loud “huh?”. The most Basic of basic passives cost 2 points, all over the tree.

Basically, at the end of the day, Marksmanship is less than what we have today regardless of legendaries or talents.

9 Likes
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I’d also like to extend this to BM and the Hunter class tree section as a whole.

Since the Warlock trees finally came out, I’ve been playing around quite a lot with different builds, most on Lock and Hunter as these are the two classes I’m debating playing as a main in DF.

My general experience, with pretty much every other class, has been that I’m building my hypothetical paths and end up getting to pick 2 final nodes in either side and then I’ll usually have “chump change” to throw on a few other talents, like 2-3 left over talent points to spend.

With BM Hunter, I ran out of points before I even got to my 2nd final node. I had to spend so much prior to getting to what should be the fun stuff, that I simply couldn’t afford fun.

But to reel it back to MM Hunter.
I fully agree about the ST vs AOE issue. There is no marriage between the two. You’re either ST, or you’re 3+ targets.

Aff also has this issue, where you’re either committing to Seeds, or you’re committing to things like Drain Soul.
But yeah, the MM version is worse.

6 Likes
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The hunter trees are “how can we take the SL talent trees and spread this out over 61 points” where some other classes get “now is our chance to add new and old fun stuff!”

Hunter trees have zero hype. Hunter, Druid, and Mage trees feel like a guy that didn’t want to be at work that day just getting his assignment done and going home.

6 Likes
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That’s probably true, but as far as the forum commentary goes, I haven’t seen very many specific suggestions for things that would be fun to add to the MM tree… apart from Black Arrow, which we had in Legion, and a couple other things. I think it spawned some type of beast periodically… can’t remember. Anyway, I suggested Powershot, but I have a small bias.

Maybe I’m obtuse and missed the suggestions.

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I thought it would be nice to get Sniper Shot out of the PvP tree (since it’s basically worthless there) and add it at the bottom of the MM tree. Could be a choice node with Wailing Arrow. I’m not sure what the effect should be - maybe an “Increase AiS damage for x seconds” or some kind of deal where it includes a slow or short stun from the power of the shot, and cannot be blocked/dodged/parried because of its level of precision. I’m just spitballing.

Sidenote, and not specific to MM, but I feel like the choice node between ES and Barrage is a noob trap. Having two abilities that do the same thing in slightly different ways isn’t a choice - you’ll just pick the one that does more damage. Barrage needs to have utility attached to it to make it worth picking in various situations. So, for example, just adding a slow would make it VERY nice for niche applications in both PvE and PvP.

3 Likes
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I totally agree about Powershot. We already are good at knockbacks and the idea of having a knockback baked into a damage ability fits right in. I would merge Sniper shot and Powershot into 1 ability and have the long-range + the knockback and also the cast reduced by haste and Trueshot on a longer CD.

There are many good suggestions in the forums but the issue that comes to mind is ability bloat.
Imo, Black Arrow while cool for sure, we already have Death Chakram. Basically the same thing with slight variance and some AoE. Flayed Shot would’ve been the better choice because of the kill shot synergy in the MM Tree instead of Death Chakram. I also think Venthyr on live feels really good to play for all 3 specs when it comes to play style. Better than the other 3. NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR COVENANT ABILITIES but because of the procs, speed and elusiveness that it brings. Try it out on live. Anyways, Flayed Shot would’ve also been the better choice vs Black Arrow even though Black Arrow itself has a history in the hunter class.

I would instead suggest passive abilities that can change the pace and anticipation of MM. Such as Sniper Training, Old Chimera Shot (No “a” in it) that interacted with your stings, and Aimed Shot while Moving.

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Sniper Shot is interesting in that in PVP it does its job the way it’s supposed to. When it comes to PVE there is a cap on what 20% really means. You don’t get a true 20% value, it is nerfed. In a dungeon or raid environment, it has a long cast time and it isn’t reduced by Trueshot and the damage is super nerfed.

With that being said I don’t see an issue with introducing it into the trees. It’s a good filler for when your rapid fire and aimed shot are on CD and you have the focus to burn. You can play around with it in warmode. it’s a pretty fun ability to have in your back pocket instead of wailing arrow just like you mentioned in your suggestion.

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Yeah, to be clear, I’m not saying it should exist in its exact form if implemented in a spec tree. It just feels like there should be something like it to scratch the itch of the sniper fantasy. On the other hand, if we got something like old Chimaera instead of the travesty of the talent we have now, we wouldn’t necessarily need another shot.

2 Likes
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Yeah, I agree about Flayed Shot w/ the Kill Shot procs in place of Death Chakrams. The only thing I sort of dislike about it - which is not much - is that Kill Shot feels a little bit weak in the damage dept. even though the procs are generous on live and that sort of makes up for it.

If they brought back the old Chimera Shot, I think someone suggested that it come back as a choice between it or Rapid Fire. Its damage used to be pretty punishing at certain points.

If they don’t just make AiS castable while moving (as part of the AiS talent), didn’t someone suggest something like Spiritwalker’s Grace… or I guess Aspect of the Fox would make more sense, which offers some kind of Raid utility as well. I get the feeling this will never happen.

Just a point on making Sniper Shot (which I would say isn’t useless in BGs - its 40 focus cost even offers an alternative way to activate the 4p) a shot with a damage buff - feels a little like Colossus Smash… perhaps not as bad as that.

2 Likes
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Hmm idk, Improved Kill Shot gives it the 25% bonus critical damage and the MM talent Razor Fragments has the 25% Increase in damage that flayed shot has but what we don’t have in Shadowlands that the new trees have are Killing Blow which increases KS’s critical strike by 20% plus the new Dead Eye that flat out gives us 2 charges of kill shot. I’d argue Kill Shot will be stronger per cast but I’d admit that we might not see it proc as often as it does with Flayed shot on retail.

I’m down with old Chimera Shot and playing it with Serpent Shot and Latent Poisons.

If they give us Aspect of the Fox (Which I’d love) then I’m down for Aimed Shot to stay the way it is since AotF will allow us to cast while moving anyway even if it’s only for a short duration. If they don’t give us AotF then I’m not against casting Aimed Shot while moving provided that it doesn’t hit as hard being that Aimed Shot does HEAVY damage under the right circumstances, it would be broken in pvp.

Sniper shot is amazing in open pvp. and I like the idea of Sniper Shot being weaved in to consume the 4pc for a stronger hit. Sounds fun

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MM tree is utter garbage. They put way too many useful skills way down.

1 Like
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I don’t mind being immobile for AiS casts… in fact I might prefer it that way, although it’s difficult to explain why. Probably something to do with getting the cast off before feeling I have to move again… might be more satisfying in the long run than not having this limitation. Anyway, I’m just a pvp hack in this game. The other thing is, I’d rather not have to sacrifice damage to the mobility god. On the other hand, boosting the probability of Lock n’ Load going off…

2 Likes
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I feel the exact same way. Makes the spec feel tactical in a way. I prefer it.
I’m not against it as an additional playstyle choice tho, if that makes sense. If it brings a new way for players to experience it and enjoy it whether it’s Sniper Training, mobile AiS or anything new really I’m down for it. The spec has been fun especially right now but it def needs new injection of fun, variety

2 Likes
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I reviewed the Hunter MM & BM class tree (sorry SV) in order to determine the impact of new players/characters spending so many points early and how this affects access to two ability types: 1) AoE [Multi-Shot], 2) the Primary Cooldown [True Shot, Bestial Wrath]. The intent was to spend the least number of points to gain access to these abilities.

Marksman
Access to Multi-Shot - 10 points, Level 29
Access to True Shot - 21 points, Level 51 (quickest access through Volley)

Beast Mastery
Access to Multi-Shot - 2 points, Level 13
Access to Bestial Wrath - 9 points, Level 27

How this compares to other classes:

Assassination Rogue (I’m not a Rogue player, please be kind)
Fan of knives - (awarded at level 19 as baseline ability. 5 points spent in tree)
Deathmark or Exsanguinate - 10 points, Level 29

Fury Warrior
Whirlwind - (awarded at level 10 as a baseline ability. No points required)
Recklessness - 11 points, Level 31

Retribution Paladin
Divine Storm - 2 points, Level 13
Avenging Wrath/Crusade - 10 points, Level 29

Based on the above, it takes MM Hunters about the same number of points to gain AoE as other classes to gain a primary cooldown ability. Equally appalling is how far MM Hunter have to go to access their main cooldown ability.

4 Likes
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Wouldn’t it be even worse in PvE? The only time you’d need the extra range is when dropping a mechanic at extreme range, but you can’t do that during its 3s cast time.

This I’d love to see, along with Legion Windburst (slightly improved in its functionality).

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Context in another post.

Edit: Maybe something akin to Caitlyn’s ultimate ability in LoL (if you’re familiar.) You charge a ranged shot up for butt-kicking damage, but it’s interceptable if someone gets between the Hunter and the target before it goes off. Or I guess the old Powershot mechanic could also be a thing, though that pierced if memory serves.

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From my previous review of the point requirements to unlock an AoE and a major cooldown for MM Hunter, the recommendation would be as follows:

Move True Shot to the spot above (Steady Focus). This would make the minimum point requirement 12 at Level 33, not much more than the other specs.

Additional changes -

Relocate Steady Focus to the Double Tap position. Drop Double Tap down within the space between Serpentstalker’s Trickery and the new True Shot location.

Move Sharpshooter to below Bullseye and move Wailing Arrow to the spot Sharpshooter now occupies. You could then modify Wailing Arrow giving you a chance to add a node below it for increased throughput.

Modify Dead Eye to not only add two charges of Kill Shot, but also make Kill Shot usable on targets with 35% health remaining. This would enhance Deadeye making it more appealing.

Make Improved Arcane Shot, Precise Shots, and Killing Blow single point nodes. This would free up three points that will allow for player flexibility at the bottom of the tree. Currently, MM has 17 points available to spend in the top portion of the tree alone. For Beast Mastery, it’s 18. Compare this to other DPS specs (chosen at random):

Frost DK - 11, Fury Warrior - 10, Assassination Rogue - 14, Retribution Paladin - 11, Feral Druid - 15, Dev Evoker - 14, Arcane Mage - 11, Shadow Priest - 15, Elemental Shaman - 10.

2 Likes
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They should reduce points all around the tree and spare it for new ones. Make 3 branches that work with different types of shots.

Left side would be dealing with bleeds like master marksman, kill shot builds, aimed Shot leaving a bleed

Middle would be piercing type shots like piercing shot, a Barrage enhancing node, power shot and abilities that go THROUGH buttloads of clumped enemies (armor piercing)

The right side is dealing with your stings. Primarily Serpent sting where you’ll find serpentstalker’s trickery, Serpent spread and maybe old chimera shot but basically abilities that enhance our poison stings

It’s probably way too late for something like this but this type of creativity already exist as mm shared many styles in the past to justify totally unique builds within the spec like fury or enhance

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Completely agree, the MM tree feels like a mess. your constantly making choices that feel bad and no matter how many times iv rearranged the talents it feels like your going to be way way way worst off then you are on live. MM has also had a 2 target cleave problem they fixed with the 4 set…only to turn around and not bake that into the spec like they did with alot of others, returning us to crap on 2 target.

I really hope they give this a hard look and make sweeping changes. I never thought i would seriously be giving up things like multi shot to get an end game talent you need…broken… Why is it Blizz cant figure out how to let us go into a new expansion without feeling like they broke our class and its gonna take the whole expansion to get it back to a playable state. Adding every ability to the talent tree was a terrible idea but again its the core concept of the entire expansion…but hey covenants went so well guess will just push forward with this crap again…

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From my understanding, based entirely on the newer trees allowing players to take 3 capstones and the positive feedback from that option, I fully expect the hunter trees will be updated.

If they aren’t … that’s an absolute shame.