Marksmanship feedback (foxing feedback 8/15/20)

Classes Hunter
1

hello again my hunter friends. it’s been almost 3 months since my last feedback.

not much has changed till recently of which many fantastic changes have happened! that being said myself and many others feel there is still a great deal to be done with marksmanship (and hunter).

let’s look at the changes and examine the impacts and give a breakdown on what all these changes have done and at the end i’ll explain what i, and many many other hunters feel needs to be addressed.

  1. the biggest change made is chimaera shot talent now replaces arcane shot and gives marksmanship a unique gameplay option while changing their niche all from this one talent.

  2. secondary changes are steady focus giving 7% haste on double cast in a row, rapid fire being shorter duration, new master marksman is old piercing shots.

  3. anything else is irrelevant

  • how does this affect marksmanship?

instead of having just single target and 3-5 target cleave, marksmanship becomes good at 2 target cleave, and with help from runeforges very good at 3-5 targets.

chimaera shot will most likely end up being the >only< playstyle “1%” hunters will be playing due to it’s power shift, and gameplay not being stale (near unfunctional)

rapid fire changes to be shorter imo makes 0 difference. it’s not a satisfying button to press and the focus generation granted by it is pathetic. it’s just something there to press if it’s off CD as second to last priority.

master marksman going from flat crit on aimed shot to old piercing shots (crits make your target bleed for 15% of the damage over 6 seconds) is a step in the right direction for opening talent CHOICE.

which brings is to the next part of the feedback…

what is still missing/lacking?

serpent sting being a longer duration but overall same damage is 100% pointless. it is still a dps loss to even cast (not even that you’re taking a weaker talent option). if it was applied passively it would completely shift the opposite way not only bringing back what many “ranged survival” hunters are starved for, but be viable in the same row of the first tier.

Lock n load… lock n load oh deary dear. i’ve stated in my LAST feedback post that in order for lock n load to be ON PAR with volley just in SINGLE TARGET it would have be over 20% proc rate while also giving you a charge of aimed shot.
5% to 8% is in the right direction… one step at a time as they say, but in this case it would need to be an olympic sprinter to get on board with how utterly useless this slap in the face this talent is compared to what old lock n load was, and should be.
this talent should just be “aimed shot is now instant” and you know something hilarious? it still wouldn’t be as good as volley!! however many hunters would be overjoyed to take this talent in that variant.

  • “Aimed” shot

aimed shot having to be stood still to “aim” at whatever we’re attacking literally makes no sense
at any level of logic

if an IRL human is capable of outperforming a GOD SLAYING champion of their class order hero of azeroth. (that can still use a gun/crossbow btw)
how is it we can fire 7 shots off in 2 seconds that can hit 5 other targets at the same time while running at full speed/falling/teleporting… but we need to “aim” while standing still like nothing else we do is being aimed?

if you look at ANY feedback to marksmanship… it’s inescapable to not read “casted while moving” or “aimed shot instant cast” because it is simply not hunter-esk in design, and NOT FUN.

there is the argument to be made that managing to find the time to stand still to get your casts off is skillful and performing the skillful tasks in game is rewarding. that is not the case at all with hunters. we’re designed to be the mobile (AT ALL TIMES; outside of ressing our pet if we use one) ranged physical damage dealer.

casted generator, hard hitting instant shots. that is the very essence of what marksmanship is and you can ask any hunter who played in tier 18 what their favorite marksmanship hunter tier was and it’s going to be tier 18 every time.

why tier 18? it made aimed shot instant and completely alleviated the burden of having to stand still while also still having a mastery that rewarded you for standing still; not punish you by literally not being able to play your class.

marksmanship in HFC (tier 18) did not do AoE damage. it was single target, and had chimaera shot for the occasional cleave damage, and barrage/trinket for AoE damage. nothing else was AoE and when you want to identify something for being unique and a very clear image of what that spec is meant to be… that’s it.

there was no “oh no my aoe is capped” or anything because it was F U N to play, and while simple in concept it had depth to it still. properly managing our 80% health threshold focus refund on aimed shot was core to performing well, but has been removed and split into 2 different “talents” while still not having a focus component to it is not fun, unique, or good design.

this is why i stress the issue that aimed shot not be casted or have charges. it is a core component to what made, and makes marksmanship what it is, and why so many other hunters also feel so strongly about how legion and bfa marksmanship has gone.

sidewinders in concept was great but it fell short and felt unsatisfying simply because it was limited in how we could use it. reversing the entire concept of a hunter from casted generator, instant hard to instant generator, casted hard is what made so many really detest it… to the point where they just flat out refused to use aimed shot.

SOMETHING THAT SHOULD SERIOUSLY BE NOTED
people literally made a marksmanship build that did not use a core spell to the spec out of hatred for it being casted!

thank you for coming to my bill and ted talk.
smash that like button harder than your step hunter developer stuck on 2 charges of aimed shot.

23 Likes
2

I support everything you said.

5 Likes
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I agree with you man, We need AS instant. That’ll solve many issues and we finally will become a kiting class like we should be. I don’t like casting AS, neither do I like SS. Having AS instant will give us at least some chance against DHs, a bit more with other melee classes. That will actually allow us to compete in the arenas. But I feel like there will still be things to fix, but AS instant is the #1 issue.

4 Likes
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Foxinghunter da real mvp, tier 18 was the most fun and I’m sad now that it’s gone and there isn’t at least a legendary for hunters that lets you cast aimed shot while moving ._.

4 Likes
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What if we start sending messages to blizzard in twitter, like the priests did?

I mean, lets respectfully ask them to make MM Hunter viable in Arena again. We want to see MM over 2.3k!!! There is not even ONE!!!.

Blizz developers should create a MM Hunter character and try to win duels again rogues, fire mages, DH, Destro Locks, and see how unfair the game is for us.

It is like they want us to just collect all the pets in the game. I saw 2 MM Hunters in arena in 5 months!

They have destroyed the class so bad in BFA.

  • We don’t have a dispel
  • We only have one single baseline CC (Freezing Trap, that shares DR with our PVP CC (Scatter Shot)
  • Our main ability to do dps, has to be cast for 2 seconds. This was not a problem in Vainilla or BC, because the classes were not flying, teleporting, pouncing over you every 15 seconds. Try to kite a feral druid or a DH and you will understand what I am talking about.

MAKE MM HUNTERS GREAT AGAIN!!!

SL is not doing good so far, so if we not cry now, we will have another bad expansion again!

:’(

7 Likes
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Not really.

Serpent Sting costs less Focus and does more damage than Arcane Shot. It is never a DPS loss to use it, unless you are refreshing it super early.

Lock and Load is fine at 8%. It procs regularly. It does give a free charge when it procs. 20% proc rate would be insane, you would essentially never be casting Aimed Shot because you would have a proc after 1 of 5 Auto Shots on average, less than 15 seconds. That would mean they either nerf Aimed Shot damage to compensate, or Calling the Shots and Volley become completely uncompetitive, even for AoE.

Hardcasted Aimed Shot has been a staple of MM for the entirety of WoW, excepting Wrath and HFC. Based on my observations on the forums, the most well-liked period of MM was Cataclysm and Pandaria. While I would be fine with cast-on-the-move Aimed Shot, I’m fine with it as is, given the charge system.

The problem with Aimed Shot isn’t the cast time, it’s that there is no payoff for landing the cast.

There was, in Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry, where AoE was prominent in many fights, and MM lagged behind. HFC focused HEAVILY on single target and priority add burst, both of which were incredibly strong for MM.

Sidewinders in concept was terrible, in execution was terrible, thematically was terrible. There was one redeeming quality, and it is that it allowed you to completely ignore the RNG nature of Vulnerable if managed properly, but in doing so, it essentially eliminated everything that makes MM, MM.

If you are talking about “meme build” in Legion, that was because it was effective in M+, and standard MM was not. Sidewinders builds pulled everything in sight, same issue as Barrage. Non-Sidewinders builds took too long to ramp up the damage on trash, and didn’t deal enough damage on bosses reliably enough to make up the difference. Again, the cast time of Aimed Shot wasn’t the problem, it’s that there was no payoff for executing well, unless the RNG gods happened to smile on you.

5 Likes
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“not really” tell me how they’re not?

marks arcane shot does more, and we’ll be using chim shot most of castle nath, but even if it somehow worked out to be higher dps than just using steady shot for more focus and not disrupting the rotation for a ((weak talent)) you’re still losing 4-8% of your dps not picking the (what should be) obviously better talents for performance.

you seem to have missed the entire point with lock n load. “it procs regularly” means nothing when you would need 20% proc rate TO BE ON PAR WITH VOLLEY and is still worse than volley if 100% of your aimed shots are instant without giving you a charge, and no it doesn’t give one; it just makes the NEXT one instant cast. it’s been a 200% dead talent.

yes… the most played and widely accepted best tier for marksmanship is tier 18, hfc.
i didn’t mention or say high maul or blackrock foundry… because most hunters were busy playing bm/surv and having fun instead of being a masochist. i’ve not heard one hunter say they liked marks in cata/mop… all of the feedback (and it’s been literal 1000’s of players over the years) for cata is survival was great in dragon soul, and throne of thunder. 0 about MM.
if marksmanship had the tools they had in HFC for highmaul and BRF you would’ve seen a far greater representation of them with huge amounts of feedback saying WoD overall for mm was best, not just HFC.

if you personally didn’t like sidewinders then that’s your opinion, but the concept of the ability was good minus the charges.
it was used because it far out performed any other build in emerald nightmare, and made a return in tomb of sargeras for spread cleave such as KJ.

you did not raid mythic in any of these tiers and have no footing for your claims that people used something for a reason. i did, and that was the reason… meme build existed due to lack of movement, and it did fairly well in dps and despite the possibility of “standard” marksmanship at the time doing more dps… it was the case of focusing shot in WoD all over again… it’s theory dps vs practical application.

if you’re seriously trying to argue that an ability that absolutely CRUSHED meme build into the ground in mythic+ wasn’t as good in an all AoE situation you’re out of your mind. i was top 600 mage in m+ first season just from farming artifact power and you know what i never saw in that time? a MM hunter not using sidewinders for consistent AoE burst until nighthold when i went to play my hunter again bcus meme build > standing still.

marksmanship talents were said to facilitate the ability to bring back the ranged survival aspects of play and at no period in the past 4 years has that been true.

so yes… if lock n load makes aimed shot instant, and serpent sting (even if lowered in dmg from passive applications) would bring back a large portion of that play.

now keep in mind… again… reiterate this since you missed it the first time… volley beats out lock n load as “all aimed shots are instant” in JUST SINGLE TARGET by over 5 times the damage AND offering trick shots the entire duration so you can hit 2 targets with aimed shot while it’s up.
they’re not even close… but it would still be nice to have as an option instead of just being a flat out dead talent for it’s entire existence.

2 Likes
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Just because you have beef with Legion MM and disliked vulnerable, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t effective. By the end of Legion, vulnerable was always up, MM did actually amazing DPS in M+ with ToS 2 set + Antorus 4 set + BIS legendaries. MM pumped.

10x better than the dumpster fire we got in BFA MM. The low PvE/PvP BFA representation of MM is evidence of this.

3 Likes
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Really? So you have logs or sims showing this?

“Revert to MoP” is one of the most common suggestions for “How to fix Hunters”.

MM actually had more tools in HM and BRF, given Aspect of the Fox was still a thing. In BRF particularly AotF was clutch on a number of encounters. The difference was in encounter design, with HFC heavily favoring “Hey this important add spawned, snare and kill it”.

It was used because MM performance without it in EN was wildly variable due to the severity of RNG’s impact on Marking Targets procs and Vulnerable uptime. Changes in 7.1.5 made Vulnerable significantly better, and Sidewinders fell out of favor because it was ridiculous.

I did raid Mythic in EN as a matter of fact. My guild fell apart just as NH was opening up.

I agree with this. They said they were going to bake RSV into MM via talents, and they never delivered. I think they ought to do that without taking talent options away from more traditional MM, but I don’t have an easy fix.

Again, I’d like to see a sim or log that shows this, because that seems completely ridiculous.

2 Likes
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By the end, with set bonuses and legendaries and maxed out artifact traits and the netherlight crucible, sure. It was effective. It was better than 7.1.5 MM, and better than 7.0 MM by a wide margin. I still wouldn’t call it a particularly good version of MM compared with other expansions.

4 Likes
11

Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot should not exist on the same spec. I finally figured out why Rapid Fire bugs me so much.

One says “I can shoot one very carefully placed shot for large amounts of damage.”

The other says “I can fire multiple unerring shots in the time it takes me to aim that other shot for even more damage. While moving.”

Why are you doing both?! Thematically, Rapid Fire only shows the absolute nonsense of the argument around Aimed Shot: you don’t need to stand still to concentrate on a damned target for one big shot when you can unerringly land twenty shots in the same amount of time while running at a full sprint!

Why would a marksman worth their salt use a flintlock rifle when they have access to an AK-47?

If you’re gonna build a spec around a signature ability like Aimed Shot, then it needs more, especially when you have a more versatile ability like Rapid Fire in your toolbox.

As an experience, Aimed Shot needs to knock it out of the park: like Robin Hood, Quigley Down Under, that awful Wanted movie, and games like Bulletstorm and Sniper, it needs an incredible sense of power and precision every time it’s used. You want to feel like a god who has forced mere wood, metal, and powder to do far more than science said it ever could every time you use this.

10 Likes
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Hire this man to make marksman great again.

The current design for marks is backwards and not fun.

6 Likes
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Dude you can disengage WHILE channeling Rapid Fire, but you have to stand still for 300 years to cast aimed shot lmfao.

9 Likes
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when i did my original feedback 3 months ago, even if you get 3 procs per minute you’re still barely half the damage in single target.

you could make the case that “well it’s free and instant giving you 3-4 steady shots worth of damage to put into chimaera shots on 2 targets” but if you go that route… it’s double volley damage, and it’s completely left in the dust at how much better volley is for 2 targets even if you nerfed it by 75% damage… volley mechanically is superior, and does more damage.

2 Likes
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Volley also appears to allow Trick Shots on two targets… at least on the first Aimed Shot or RF… I don’t know. Wasn’t sure if this was mentioned, but I’m too lazy to search for any reference to it.

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i dont really have anything constructive to add about mm but as someone who shoots irl, dudes like lars andersen are a complete meme and shouldn’t be taken seriously or used as a serious example

anyways bring back chimera shot + sting interactions, that was the best part about old mm

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Volley provides 420% AP, as physical (so 294% once armor is accounted for) per cast, with a 45s CD. That’s 392% AP per minute, at the cost of 1.33 GCDs per minute.

Lock and Load, at 8% proc chance, procs on average every 37.5s (before haste), or 1.6 procs per minute. Each proc grants a charge of AiS (I just tested it on the beta, it very definitely grants a bonus charge when it procs) and makes the next cast both free and instant. That means it grants an additional Aimed Shot plus 1.5 additional Precise Shot charges (average) per minute.

Aimed Shot deals 248.4% AP, as physical (173.88% AP after armor). Arcane Shot deals 75% AP (60% * 1.25 due to our True Aim passive at level 49) as Arcane, and each Precise Shots charge is worth 75% of an Arcane Shot’s damage, so 1.5 charges is worth 84.375% AP. That’s a total of 258.255% AP per proc.

1.6 procs per minute means it grants 413.208% AP, at the cost of 1.6 GCDs (since we excluded the base damage of Arcane Shot here, we also don’t have to include their GCDs. The damage from the extra Precise Shots charges is effectively just added to what would otherwise be unbonused filler Arcane Shots that we’d be casting anyway, so that damage is “free”, in that it doesn’t cost us any GCDs or focus we wouldn’t already be spending on those filler Arcane Shots).

The GCDs used by each of these take the place of filler GCDs. A “filler GCD” is defined as a focus-neutral ratio of Steady Shot and unbonused Arcane Shot (since that’s what we fill with when we have nothing better to do). In SL, that ratio is 1 Arcane Shot (75% AP as Arcane) to 2 Steady Shots (60% AP as Physical, 42% after armor), which takes a total of 5.0s (3.33 GCD). That means any given GCD is 30% Arcane Shot (1.5s out of 5) and 70% Steady Shot (3.5s out of 5). Net is (75% + 2 * 42%) * (1.5 / 5) = 47.7% average AP per filler GCD.

As such, Volley provides a net of 392% - 47.7% * 1.33 = 328.4% AP per minute. Lock and Load provides a net of 413.208% - 47.7% * 1.6 = 336.9% AP per minute.

So no, Volley is not beating Lock and Load right now on single target. It’s also worth noting that Volley does not scale with haste at all. It does not gain additional ticks from haste, and its CD does not scale with haste (it also doesn’t look like it’s ticks are even sped up by haste). As a result, Lock and Load, which does scale with haste, will get farther and farther ahead as our gear improves.

For example, at 20% haste, Volley still deals 328.4% AP per minute, while Lock and Load instead provides 404.27% AP per minute.

And if you also have Chimaera Shot (which increases the benefit of those Precise Shots charges), it’s even further ahead.

18

Oh yeah, I’m sure Lars can hit the target with a lightweight bow, but if you give him anything with a heavy draw that quick aim goes right out the window.

The thing is, our characters are more than that.

3 Likes
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I think people forgot how upset players were with Legion MM. I mean I quit the game for a year and half due to that design, and that “Let’s Talk” thread on the old forums was wild in disapproval. It was a HUGE deal! NOT FUN.

It’s a odd feeling isn’t it? To have this carefully placed aimed shot spec but then go fully automatic like a spaz and yet GAIN FOCUS. Dumb “fantasy.”

7 Likes
20

While i think the instant cast is a big ask for blizzard , a few things would help a lot one mobility give mm hunter a talent like frost mages (ice floes) that lets you cast while moving ( mages hage 3 charges) at least we could get off an aimed shot out and still move would help in pvp and pve , we lose a lot of dps because we need to move out of the aimed shot rotation and spam arcane or steady shot due to movement , on mymage who isnt as geared as my hunter im doing almost the same dps just because i can shoot out my biggest spell while moving ( just a comparison on the movement part)… if not that then make aimed show so strong that at least when we get it off it is worth it… and finally if all that doesnt work bring back ranged survival which was the best spec in vanilla and MOP instead of tryign to blend some of that in MM.