If a tank can’t get a tclap off before healers or DPS have aggro, it probably isn’t a tank problem, imo. But I’d love to compare notes…
I don’t care whose “fault” it is. I get the groups I get and I do the best I can to keep everyone alive. I discovered I was drawing aggro too often to be comfortable so I respeced to put a point there. I’ll put in more as I level if and as I feel the need.
I do. I actively tank, and I don’t have any of these problems. If someone is complaining about these problems, my guess is that they are particularly bad.
I do so I know who to kick
I know who I would kick… (and that is my last resort, fwiw)
It is quite clear. If the healer is pulling of the tank as was said by the op is is the tanks fault.
The situation wa snot the dps pulls than healer gets agro if that was the case would be the dps fault but that was not the case the op brought up.
As mentioned it is the tanks job to call for cc as needed it is the tanks fault if the damage is so high he can’t win vs healing agro to handle that damage and cc was not called for as said.
Also as said if the cc was called for and not being used than it’s the dps fault I made it quite clear who is at fault and it is quite clear by the ops discretion.
The issue here is the lack of cc being used based on the gear level of the tank. As the threat he is producing dose not counter the healers threat in that damage level as such cc that the op said is not being used ia the reason. The fault lies in either the tank for not calling for it or the dps for not using it once called. The situation is quite clear. The healer is never at fault for healing when the tank is at 5 percent hp that’s a he healz or you wipe situation.
That’s not true. Healers can easily pull of a tank by pre-healing, or tossing massive heals early, esp if they crit. They can also use some of their skills to prevent the tank from establishing reasonable threat.
This is just a greatly misinformed statement.
Only if the tank is OK with carrying everyone else in the group that should, at this point in the game, know where they should target their DPS (and CC, frankly — not like this is difficult to know), unless they are either brand new to the game, or incredibly bad.
And if the DPS was any good, they would have inspected, and CC’ed accordingly. OBVIOUSLY!!! Is this a new game?
For what it’s worth, when I tank instances, I assume professionalism, and pick up the slack based on the performance of others. I very, very rarely (if ever) call someone else out. Usually, and really mostly always, we have smooth runs. It doesn’t require many skilled players to make a heroic run smoothly.
If they’re causing wipes or something really bad. But people can make mistakes, or be undergeared, or inexperienced. If you kick them how will they learn or get the gear or the experience. Play how you want but I like pugs and I like helping people by healing through the inexperienced or undergeared difficulties. That’s why I level holy. Sure I could just do the easy guild runs but I like dungeons and never get enough. If there were no dungeons in the game i wouldn’t be playing it.
It’s not missinformee at all.
If the tank is at 5 percent gp the heart has to heal there is no two ways about this. If the tank is droping to 5 percent instantly that is the cast that is being talked about here then pre healing is the CORRECT action as them not doing so mean a tanks death.
As such them pulling as a result of pre healing is not the healers fault it is the reason that made that damage level happen.
This is the lack of cc and as such on the tank for not calling for cc and if it was called for on the dps for not using.
There is no situation that a tank drops to 5 percent hp instantly that is the healers fault for healing in. Even if he is preventing mobs from hitting the tank as if again the tank is droping to 5 percent instantly if the healer was droping mobs from hitting the tank not doing so would mean extra damage and a tank death.
It’s clear as day the situation being talked about is a lack of Cc issue and ton the tank to call for cc and the dps to use it. You can call the tank calling cc being the tank carrying people but it’s not it’s an expected part of your job as a tank and Playing both a tank and a dps it is expected of the tank to call for cc when it’s wanted. In fact dps using cc when not called often is unwanted by the tank as slows the run down if the tank can handle it and planes for mobs to not be cced and often results in unwanted pulls if cc is used badly when not called for.
A tank is the leader of the group that is part of the role.
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OK. But clearly from the rest of your statements here, you’re relatively new… That’s cool! I wish you the best.
If you will allow me to offer some advice, it would be “don’t point fingers, but work on improving yourself. If you play with people who aren’t as good, then work on picking up the slack.”
It isn’t clear as day that it’s a lack of CC. And it certainly isn’t on the tank to call for it. I suppose a novice DPS might assume so, but stop being a puppet, and learn to play… imo.
I don’t kick people for being inexperienced, I kick them if they are corrected but refuse to change their actions after having them pointed out
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you’re both right it’s a joint responsibility
Not new at all and not a dps at that main tank that has been tanking since van and done so again in classic and tbc.
It is the tanks job to call for Cc as needed and know the threat they produce as well as the level of damage mobs will do to you as such knowing the healing you will need to take.
Not calling for cc on a pull that will instantly drop you to 5 percent hp than losing to healing agro, as the ops case said is 100 percent on the tank.
If Cc was called for and the dps dint use it than it’s on them.
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Nailed it, got it in one.
Bc heroics you needed cc unless the tank completely outgeared the place.
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Fair!
I have a different perspective, and disagree with yours (to an extent), but I appreciate that you have a valid perspective.
I typically can and will call for CC if/when needed, and feel comfortable leading groups, which is maybe why I feel comfortable tanking, but I don’t think that it should be necessary.
When I DPS, I also know how to anticipate what is going to happen, and particularly on my mage, am able to coordinate it.
EDIT:
Fair!
I have a different perspective, and disagree with yours (to an extent), but I appreciate that you have a valid perspective.
I typically can and will call for CC if/when needed, and feel comfortable leading groups, which is maybe why I feel comfortable tanking, but I don’t think that it should be necessary.
When I DPS, I also know how to anticipate what is going to happen, and particularly on my mage, am able to coordinate it.
EDIT:
This is really the point of contention, isn’t it?
Any Heroic pull where there is more than 1-2 mobs is going to do this. That’s OBVIOUS. The tank shouldn’t have to point it out, imo.
Your welcome to have a different view but will not ever agree that the tank failing to communicate and lead a pull causing issues is not the tanks fault. If you can’t lead a pull you have failed at your job as a tank. People not doing there job is on them but the pull being a “yolo” pull or happening with people being unclear of what your doing is on you as the tank. If your dps will cc on there own without you saying and you know that, great you did your job and the team is on the same page if you are assuming and it goes bad that’s on you the tank.
No it’s not necessary to cc every pull and never said it was.
In heroics no if there is more than one mob even you do not need to hard cc based on the group and as such if you don’t ask for it the dps not doing so not only is reasonable but them following directions. My group is already aoe pulling without hard cc almost every pull in heroics including heroic sh considered to be the “worst” trash heroic. With our best time being today clearing heroic sh in under 25 min. These pulls have upward of 10 mobs furthermore more than one. As a feral druid so a tank with little aoe and yet don’t lose threat on anything before planned or drop to 5 percent hp instantly. So no hard Cc is not always required but communication as the tank to how a pull is going to happen is.
It is necessary to call for cc thou as the tank as the one pulling and controlling the pace when it is required. If you don’t require cc for a pull as the damage is not going to be high enough to force your healer to need to heal you from 5 percent with a precasted heal to have any hope to that’s fine. But when the damage is that high you not doing so as a tank esp in a pug is a failure as a tank. It is right is blizzard role discription for tanks that you are the leader of the charge. This means not only being the first in but setting the pace of how the charge will go as such if your going to run on and aoe with no cc or los and soft pull back with 2 CC’s. It is the tanks job to communicate what he is going to do not the dpses job to read your mind. While the dps should not be expected to know how much damage you will take from the mobs they might make there own guesses but that is not there job that is going above and beyond that when done well is quite nice. In the end thou cc not being called for in a pull that will hit you that hard resulting in more healing agro than you can counter, is entirely on the tank.
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Fair. I would take this stance personally, if I am the tank in the situation. But not if I am not. And if you do, I’d question your actual experience and ability as a tank. We can put it to the test if you’d like to group on some content some time…
I would take that stance regardless of if the tank or not.
If I am pugging as a dps and the tank runs in randomly and gets clapped since he assumed no cc is required it’s on him.
If he starts losing without saying/marking anything and expects CC’s to go out and they don’t that’s on him for failing to type and ask for it.
If he marks stuff and just assumes people know the marks means eg moon for poly that’s also on him.
It takes no time at all to do basic housekeeping in a pug to get a smooth run and dose fall under the tanks job.
If a dps goes above and beyond and CC’s on there own when tanking great but honestly on pull would rather they don’t. If stuff goes bad after the mobs where places yes do so that’s great and shows you are more skilled than the avg dps.
A cc that is used without a plan can and often dose cause problems not helps. Many times I see a mage poly a mob that was not marked as want to get said mobs away from a pat or other example of similar only for that mob to break at a bad time pulling said pat and wiping the group.
Effective communication is a large part of tanking and failing to attempt to communicate is on the tank. It is on the dps or healz if they can’t follow directions or pick to not but failing to attempt to give that direction to get people on the same page is on the tank.
This ia true regardless of if I’m tanking or not. It is expected of the tank to lead the charge this includes how the pull will go via marks. This is why any good tank not only binds skull or has a way to quickly mark it but can mark any icon quickly. In my case hold g than can pick any marker to place instantly at the target hold h to do at mouseover with shift plus c being skull and shift plus v being x.
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Well, I wouldn’t. And I actually really don’t.
I’m actually going to double down on my convictions here and say that your idea of CC and the responsibility of the tank is fine, as long as you’re the tank. If you’re not, it’s just irresponsible, and coming from a place of not knowing how to play your class/role.
I will hard counter that as the tank expecting anyone else to know how he’s doing a pull that he’s leading exactly as blizzard puts under the job disc of a tank is irresponsible. It is not in the least irresponsible to expect a tank to mark and communicate what he’s doing that is not only expecting the normal but asking them to do no more than exactly there job description of leading the charge. To lead the charge you must have set up a charge otherwise your not leading anything you are doing nothing more than rubbishy ahead and as such bot competing your job.
That has nothing to do with no knowing how to play my class and roll that is playing my class and role effectivly. Messing up the pull of a tank as a dps by doing cc that was not called for is harmful to the group quite often as per my examples in the last post. Even if that action in most cases would be fine if that tank was planning something else you just added chaos to order.