Making SL worldofRAIDcraft will be an epic fail

[Gr-sargeras]

Bro just go raid I hear the bosses drop actual loot!

[Sarallesta-sargeras]

@Chelleybee-stormrage

Times change

Garrosh Hellscream: Times Change

[Totesmlotes-thrall]

@Bullwark-garrosh

My prot pal had her run up to 472 ish and I was good with it. I then ran up 5 more toons in M+.

That’s insanely lucrative. BFA has had the most gear flowing freely than any other expansion. It’s a problem for an MMO.

@Bullwark-garrosh

Since I don’t “do” raiding, my gear progression was only relevant to the M+ crowd. I will say that my tank having good gear makes M+ runs more fun

I’m sure it does.

@Bullwark-garrosh

I did learn to ignore ilevel from raiders though and focus on IO score, that is a far better measure of experience in M+ and thus the success rate of the next run.

Also a fair statement.

@Bullwark-garrosh

I’m not really upset with the upcoming change at all, and plan to see how it feels to M+ week after week and see if we still have progression.

If, however, I don’t get a single upgrade in 2-3 weeks, I’ll probably leave the game. I mean what’s the fun in that.

If you’re running keys consistently you’ll definitely get upgrades from the weekly vault. It may take more time but you’ll still out gear heroic raids.

[Azorahaí-thrall]

@Kettilbjorn-kilrogg

With the M+ changes, its clear that the only path to endgame progression requires raiding,

Oh you mean like how the game was from vanilla - wod ??? Legion and bfa were probably less successful than Cata was lol … especially bfa

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Gronanna-wyrmrest-accord

3 I levels in shadowlands is about 15 in terms of today. So it seems not much but it is.

That isn’t how item level works.

Item level is a linear measure of exponential scaling.

3 item levels higher is the same relative change on a 200 as a 900.

Just like Legion used 15 item level gaps between raid difficulties with gear in the 900s and BFA used 15 item level gaps with gear in the 400s.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Kettilbjorn-kilrogg

LHane … let me spell it out for you.

The big challenge of doing M+ for casuals who play dps is getting into groups. The criteria for getting into PUGS is ilvl and raider/io. With the nerf to M+ gear, the ilvl difference between raiders and non-raiders are going to be much bigger than in BFA (raiders already had an advantage) and that means competign for spots in M+ PUGs just got a lot harder for non-raider casuals … and this leads to a cunulative disadvantage wherein, difficulty gettign into groups leads to fewer groups, slower ilvl progress … and most imporrtantly slower raaider/io progress, which just further kills your chances of gettign into groups and the cycle keeps repeating to its frustrating conclusion of casuals quitting.

You have to realize, its already a big disadvantage being more casual … we are less geared and have a harder time getting into groups. Its frustrating - I have a 2200 io and have completed many 17’s on this toon and up to 20 on other toons, and I can spend an hour applying to groups as a dps for 16-18’s and get into 0 groups.

And now the problem just got a lot worse. I can;t see any point in a casual non-raider playing through the frustration of group rejection in SL given the situation that has been made worse with the M+ gear nerfs.

And people need to stop saying the vault system makes up for it. The vault system makes it worse - when you can;t get into groups, the dungeons you run will be lower and the vault rewards you get will be lesser and you just fall even further behind.

How did mythic+ runners get into groups in Legion when end of dungeon was 5 item levels under heroic raid AND the weekly chest was 5 item levels under the mythic raid?

The later only being equal for the first time in 8.3.

[Rhuor-wyrmrest-accord (Rhuor)]

For sure, but the drawback is now the items are a lower ilvl.

I don’t mind how lucrative the M+ drops are. But I do mind that they were equivalent or better than Heroic raiding. The ilvl change adjusts that.

However, I do agree that you get a lot less in Heroic raids. I’m just in support of the lower ilvl for M+ now and can understand not having things drop as much being a point of annoyance.

[Kettilbjorn-kilrogg (Kettilbjorn)]

Argorwal … it was a problem in Legion and that was before everyone uses io as they do now.

Also, the 5 level discrepancy is smaller than the 3-10 point discrepancy there is now, and the gearing difference that will be accentuated by the vault looting advantage where the number fo items you get to choose from is doubled if you raid and M+ versus just do M+.

[Gallows-korialstrasz]

[Osmigos-herod]

The game was WAY more popular when raiding completely eclipsed every other activity for obtaining powerful gear.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Kettilbjorn-kilrogg

Argorwal … it was a problem in Legion and that was before everyone uses io as they do now.

Also, the 5 level discrepancy is smaller than the 3-10 point discrepancy there is now, and the gearing difference that will be accentuated by the vault looting advantage where the number fo items you get to choose from is doubled if you raid and M+ versus just do M+.

The actual “problem” in Legion was raid tier sets usable in mythic+ actually. I thought you would know that…

How is a 5 item level discrepancy in Legion “smaller” than a 3 item level discrepancy in Shadowlands???

Getting mythic quality gear from the cache for raiding isn’t going to be that easy considering you need 3/7/10 mythic boss kills every week in a raid that has 10 bosses. Add in no cross realm and raid ID lockout systems as well.

Any guild that extends for kills automatically sacrifices their weekly item choice from raids.

Same with subbing out people for various bosses.

And killing heroic raid bosses gives you heroic gear in the vault not mythic.

[Bakkian-stormrage]

@Chelleybee-stormrage

Worst case scenario, more people play more parts of the game.

And less people will be populating mythic+ as loot drops are less consistent and there isn’t a reason to do it unless you are pushing a key after the first run of the week.

Before you say their isn’t now, what if you timed like a 13 with only 462 ilvl, then you could keep doing the 14 for gear.

[Chelleybee-stormrage]

Hooray no more carry spam? I know, people will still buy their weekly.

[Bakkian-stormrage]

@Chelleybee-stormrage

Hooray no more carry spam?

Yeah the end of dungeon loot change won’t effect that at all since its typically weeklies being bought. Rip.

[Chïntzy-aerie-peak]

Or it will be great like it used to be. Progression should require raiding.

[Eretflex-area-52]

Wod had a very nerfed lfr and no real alternate gearing route. With a real raid or die mentality. It survived.

[Bakkian-stormrage]

@Chïntzy-aerie-peak

Progression should require raiding.

And it does? They full clear heroics multiple times a week on different toons if you are in a progression guild. Not to mention to actually progress you do need to do the raid. Lol.

[Acherus-mankrik]

Let Mythic+ die. The speedrunning, competitive mentality has been nothing but cancer for the game.

[Bakkian-stormrage]

@Acherus-mankrik

The speedrunning, competitive mentality has been nothing but cancer for the game.

Thats strange because I don’t see the race to world first being an esport supported by blizzard, yet the MDI is. So it sounds like a personal opinion you are trying to pass as fact.

[Totesmlotes-thrall]

This guy gets it.