Making combat mechancis authentic - P1. "In Combat" manipulation

I haven’t heard much about Blizzard pushing to make wow combat more in-line with how it used to be. I’ve seen the blizzcon classic panel where they were like “look how we fixed the lighting here” and that’s good, but what about how the game actually played? So I just wanted to touch on something that may need adjustment if they’re going to build this game on a 7.3.5 client and I can’t recall seeing it discussed, and also ask Blizzard to consider… letting us know if these things are on the docket.

Being “in combat” and combat manipulation: Being in combat is a big deal. You can’t stealth, shadowmeld, eat, mount, normal health regen from spirit isn’t happening (except you trolls and your 5health per second! And I can’t stop it!) . But you also can’t be sapped while you’re in combat, and warriors don’t lose rage in combat, and warriors with the Anger Management talent GAIN rage by staying in combat. So sometimes you wanted to be in combat, sometimes you wanted to be out of combat.

In Vanilla you had some of the normal ways to put yourself in combat, like attacking something. A warrior could also use bloodrage to put themselves in combat. You could also buff other players or heal them to put yourself in combat. And if you were in combat and you buffed yourself? Combat extended.

Right now you can make a 110 trial priest and go give someone attacking a target dummy (they’re in combat) Fort. That will NOT put you in combat. In vanilla, putting fort on someone who was in combat would have put you in combat, and casting fort on yourself while in combat can KEEP you in combat. Applying buffs to someone in combat, including yourself, holds you in combat. And when you think of buffs, don’t think of JUST the normal buffs like fort and mark of the wild. If you were a rogue in combat and you wanted to extend combat, you could use sprint, or evasion, these are both buffs you’re applying to yourself and yes, they would extend combat. Battle shout as well. You could also bandage yourself to keep yourself in combat, or bandage anyone who is in combat. This is why in old rogue pvp videos you’ll sometimes see a rogue who wants to blind-bandage and then go for restealth. But… bandage kept him in combat, and they’ve be forced to vanish if they want a new stealth opener.

I’m not saying I don’t appreciate them trying to make the game look the same, I do, but to me looks have always been a secondary issue to gameplay. Just in general in video games I’ve always felt that way, because… it’s a game, not a painting. How you play it matters more than how it looks (unless you’re causing seizures with how it looks, RIP virtual boy). I hope blizzard is seriously looking to replicate the gameplay itself, and if they haven’t looked at this specific issue already, I hope they will. The lighting of lamps in goldshire mean so much less to me than spell batching, combat manipulation, and the mechanics of how we actually played the game, I just feel like I hear more from blizzard about the preservation of the art assets rather than the ruleset. Which to me sounds like preserving monopoly by creating an accurate representation of the board, making sure boardwalk and park place being the right color, but not mentioning preserving the number and type of dice rolled to determine how the board is traversed or what happens when you land on certain tiles. Recreated monopoly that looks the same but plays different is less authentic than a recreated monopoly that plays the same but looks different. Unless you’re framing it and putting it on a wall.

Combat mechanics, spell batching. This is what I want to hear about. I’ll give you a dollar, Ion.

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Only months away from release, and we still don’t even know if the games going to have authentic game play, that’s very scary. I really hope they keep up with the frequent updates, and we get some answers to all of this.

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They seem to believe that people want vanilla back out of nostalgia and not because the gameplay was better.

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Well said.

For now I am going to trust them that they will see this in the reference and that the game code they have is mostly there to handle it.

To all of your points, completely agree and hope it is > 99% the same in the Classic reboot.

So what you’re saying is that from their perspective:

We think we do, but they don’t think we do? :skull:

They certainly keep saying that it will.

Here’s an example of “authentic” from back then: if you cast a buff on an NPC (whether intentionally or not), it will flag you for PVP. There are other things on PVE servers that will flag you for PVP suddenly, if you you’re not paying attention. Now there are a lot of people these days, unlike 15 years ago, who are absolutely adamant that they want no PVP ever on their PVE servers. We’ll see if these things are intact, and if they are, Blizzard ignores whatever outcry comes as a result.

I think it’s going to be hard to find anyone who truly disagrees with the OP here.
Gameplay is of extreme importance and Blizzard has been wise to stay silent about it if there are going to be significant changes.
Personally I doubt it will be exactly one to one similar but I believe they are going to get it as close as possible within the limitations of the modern client.

So not entirely same but they are hoping it will be close enough so people don’t notice the subtle differences.
That said I doubt that this is a subject they are going to open up to discussion by posting anything about it.
So prepare to see it for yourself once the game launches.

I’m not sure why that would be the case unless they are planning on delivering a different gameplay experience than vanilla.

They probably can’t deliver the exact same gameplay and they know posting something about it being even slightly different could cause excrement to fly.

Not worth the risk likely.

Yeah, I could see that. But they could always omit those things if they’re small, and tell us about more significant things they are working to preserve.

I would just like some assurance that this isn’t going to be the modern game dressed up to look old. I don’t want lipstick on a hogrus.

Amidst all the AV threads and garbage we get this phenomenal thread and it has but a few replies. It’s a shame.

I completely agree with you OP. Shameless bump.

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I appreciate you saying that.

This thread is ultimately about the crunch of wow (the mechanics and ruleset) I am making another thread right now about the fluff of wow, and I hope you will all participate in that as well.

I don’t play retail WoW and have no interest in the free weekend, so it’s good to have this information. When did they even change that? I have a bad feeling that if there is no spell batching, they will change how being in combat works too.

probably because Blizz addressed this in the exact same panel the OP references…

They mentioned that they are going through the client and fixing all the differences even when it means adding work to change something. Specifically they mentioned having to revert energy regeneration because of how it changed the combat experience for rogues.

Part of the reason that this is taking so long is that they are essentially going through and trying to check every part of the game while they compare it on their internal 1.12 build and the WiP classic build. Then whenever they find a difference they go through and make a decision to revert it or keep it.

However you also want to remember that when they released the demo, they got lots of reports about “bugs” which they went and double checked and found many of them were actually correct behavior for the 1.12 client. So just cause your 10+ year old memories and possible ps experience could just be wrong and the actual game worked differently.

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Combat mechanics aren’t a part of the client, those come from the source code.

There is source code for the client, too. Source code is just the human readable version of the code before it is translated into machine language to be used in a program.

But yes, the server should be the final arbiter in whether you are in combat.

Do they? They make a general statement that they’re working for authenticity. And on the opposite side of things, they state there are issues they are debating about a lot and STILL debating about in terms of if they want to provide the authentic experience or not. And after they said that, they said we’re going to get loot sharing, which is non-authentic.

But for players who used to be very invested in WoW, the crunch of combat systems meant a lot, and they have said very little about it, and I, and maybe some of the rest, are simply asking them to speak to it.

So to say they have “addressed this in the exact same panel” is a fairly flippant dismissal that I consider to be not correct.

Except they talked about combat, with an example mentioning that even something as innocuous as energy regen rate was something that affected combat and so they reset it back to classic style ad well as combat points on targets.

While true they didnt cover everything, if smoth energy regen was a big enough combat change that needed to have work done to set it back to classic behavior, you can be fairly confident that something like entering/exiting combat will be set to the same behavior as classic. So yes they did address it.

Maybe you can. I wish I felt the same way.

I don’t remember being able to keep yourself in combat indefinitely by buffing yourself. I don’t remember healing myself extending combat either.

The rest of your description fits with my memory, though.