Mag'har Subjugation of the Ogres

Lore Story Forum
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In a previous thread “The Mag’har’s Ogre Internment Camps”, I had said that the Mag’har put the Ogres in prison camps in the Mag’har recruitment scenario. After re-examing that scenario I found out that I was mistaken and they were not put in prison camps, but were subjugated by the Mag’har, as indicated in the scenario, in the quest “Bonds Forged Through Battle”.

  • " We subdued the ogre clans long ago. But every so often, one of their bravest–and stupidest–stirs the embers of rebellion. Today is such a day. You and Eitrigg will join Geya’rah in putting down the ogre uprising. Prove yourself in battle and you may earn her respect."
  • “We have to deal with an ogre uprising every few seasons.”
    AU Grom
  • “What is the meaning of this uprising, Kor’gall?
    Geya’rah

The question is, were the Mag’har justified in subjugating the Ogres? (note: this isn’t about Yrel, the Draenei or the Light - which is what most people, including myself at times, tend to latch onto in that scenario)

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Dude.

You alright?

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Yes, thanks. Why you ask?

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Why did you make another thread rather than admit to us telling you that you were wrong that we were right, and simply edit the OP and title after

No, “uprising” does not indicate “subjugation”. Both the Nat Turner rebellion and the Pro-Trump storming in DC were “uprisings”. Only one of the two involved a subjugated people, the other one wasn’t.

As I said in the other thread:

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Define justified. Orcs have not been written to think about things from a moral angle for years, especially the WoD AU ones lol.

Of course from another angle, it’s pretty hilariously convenient that they somehow subjutagted the Ogres. In MU it made sense they could do it in small cases, but in AU? Where Ogres got more lore that took them to high level mage society tiers with set up the Ogre Empire in Farahlon to be even stronger? Same with the Botani and Breakers, sounded pretty conveniently done off screen to make the allied race seem worth literally breaking the timelines for.

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Gorian Empire was on a separate continent to the south, Farahlon was a large island to the northeast with the Botani Sporemound. Two separate things.

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I admitted my mistake in this thread, so I considered the problem addressed.

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I’m gonna subjugate you if you don’t stop.

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From the sound of it Ogres and Orcs had been ‘subjugating’ one another for thousands of years before the Draenai arrived. The Ogres would take them as slaves and gladiators while some Orc clans, like the Warsong, would retaliate by raiding their settlements.

What goes around comes around.

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You’re living Groundhog Day, except in the Mag’har scenario. This is your 100th post about it. Do you need help

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Most of those were criticizing the villain-batting of the AU Draenei and the Light. This one’s just about the Mag’har subjugation of the Ogres.

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Yes man, also wanna point out that if the orcs retaliate against the ogres…cool.

Yall ever see what happened to Kargath and the Shattered Hand Clan. Or the Warsong Clan. Messed up or not, their sadistic origins can be traced back to the horrific treatment they suffered at the hands of the ogres.

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No, most of your posts are you trying to really badly hide your deep discomfort with the idea that anything Light related be portrayed in a negative light. With a tendency towards trying to frame what Yrel and the Lightbound are doing (as far as we’re aware atm) in the most positive light you can; and conversely portray anything related to Geya’rah and the AU Mag’har in the most negative lights imaginable. When you know damned well that until we have more info, you cannot damned Rah for anything more than one very poor taste comment after just losing most of her people and her world. Especially with Yrel’s Sermon NOT contradicting Rah in any way yet.

And despite the fact that you claim I’m misrepresenting you, your post history on this topic shows that at least part of your discomfort with the Light (or any of its practitioners) being portrayed in a less than righteous, benevolent way … comes from your own relationship with your own RW faith. And you do seem to be conflating “Christianity” with “The Light” to some degree. Or, at least, the Human and Draenei brands of Light reverence.

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Well, that [what was “shown” since Legion] is a straight retcon of the old lore. And if you play, say, TBC, you won’t find how the current narrative evolves from it. Just as you won’t see how it evolves from the original concepts.

Some might be ok with retcons that twist the old meaning, some - not. It depends on how the ideas are expressed and if they are coherent and not “oh, I like those retcons that benefit my ideas, and dislike those that put a shade on them”.

gl hf

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We literally kill the ogre emperor and the kingdom is in full decline as stated by Blizzard when we get there.

I’m not surprised at all they got subjugated.

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They are not retcons. The Light has ALWAYS had the capacity for Darker shades, as evidence by the Scarlets. As well as the idea that CONVICTION, over FAITH in an IDEOLOGY, is the far more potent determining factor than the mantra or dogma of the Ideology itself. Its just these are facets haven’t gotten much attention.

And for the most part, this dev interview (which man I miss these types of things from Blizz tbh), was more about the Draenei and THEIR Benevolence. Yes, it is mentioned that they aspire to be like their patron Naaru (and yes, their patron Naaru have been generally benevolent entities) … but none of this really undermines the idea that the Light as a whole is benevolent. Or that there can’t be variety in ideology within even the Naaru ranks (or Light reverence), with there being more extreme variants popping up.

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it is indeed:

You are the first thing that has not immediately attacked me since my expedition arrived in this forsaken land… I should not even be here!

No one should become fertilizer for these monsters. How did you come to be here?

Ever since “Sorceror King” Mar’gok came to power and found those artifacts its been Felbreaker this and Firebreaker that. With his newfound power he thinks he doesn’t need the Legion!
This empire was forged with ogre strength and ogre blades and I told him as such!

I doubt he took that well…

He did not. He turned my words against me!

He ordered me and my loyal supporters to go on this cursed expedition to find the first ogre civilization and find some stupid relics! I could not disobey… now my troops are all dead and I cannot return…

©

It took a sharp turn and abandoned what made them who they were. Maybe that’s a good thing overall, but they collapsed in the process.

gl hf

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English is not my native language, but according to what I know

a piece of new information given in a film, television series, etc. that changes, or gives a different way of understanding, what has gone before

© https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/retcon

that is a textbook example of a retcon.

We had this discussion before. There was a possibility to use the Light for different purposes. And naaru had very specific role and approach, so they were not in the ordinary “user” category.

Draenei of TBC are more like eredar.

Vindicator Boros:
What it means to be a Hand of Argus… We are agents of the Light. We serve without question. We die without question.

There is a scene where right in front of Velen draenei kill a captured blood elf (Matis the Cruel quest).

The defenders were faced with an impossible choice: fight only to subdue and push back, risking death at the hands of a lesser foe; or slay allies they had no wish to kill. War was a thing to be engaged in completely or not at all, and the draenei were reminded of this when Vindicator Romnar fell beneath the surge as he made his way to the gates to investigate what disturbance his tests had caused. The vindicator was grievously wounded by the mob before the other draenei were able to pull him behind their lines to safety.

Seeing Romnar go down brought back memories to Maraad of battling the undead, and his crystalline hammer no longer merely parried but began to come down with crushing force on the invaders. Once he had cut loose the bonds of mercy, the rest of the draenei followed, and the beginnings of a slaughter were writ in the blood of the refugees.

© https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/short-story/leader-story/velen

But they tried not to follow that path

The blood elves have followed us here? They are evil to the core and should be wiped from existence!

The vindicator takes a moment to regain his composure.

I apologize, that was uncalled for. We are indebted to you for uncovering this information, name.

And the inspiration for them to follow a different path from the rest of eredar were the naaru. Or the naaru that were there when this story was originally released. Without them logically now draenei would drift to become more like sargerai.

And that’s the true nature of what they are. Draenei and ma’nari are fundamentally the same concept following different leads, with naaru being what changed the path of draenei to something different, something to aspire to.

Well, right from the horse’s mouth:

Current vision of cosmology is the same thing, repeated 6 times (here is your pantheon → follow their nature → ally when profitable or force to follow if possible; repeat 6 times)

That is not how their story was portrayed, and not something that afaia can be derived from the older lore.

gl hf

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In short, the Light is ALWAYS good and ALWAYS virtuous. Is the only cosmological force that should in no way have any layers to it, or its practitioners for that matter. Because the Scarlets do not count for some bizarre reason (and the various Horde forms of Light practice are abominations or retcons). And given how Blizz has written themselves into an absurd corner with the by-default DEEPLY flawed, prone to evil, and easily tricked through their primitive and wrong faiths Non-Euro inspired races of the Horde … there isn’t anything wrong with reinforcing the Light = European Christian Allegory in this setting. Hell, they outright state the Naaru are just the angels of Warcraft (as if that were ever in doubt).

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In short:

Occasionally, clouds of fractured Light gathered and gave shape to beings of far greater power, of far greater potential. Among these were the naaru, benevolent creatures composed of scintillating holy energies. When they gazed out across the immeasurable universe, they saw a realm of limitless possibilities. The naaru vowed to use their mastery over holy magic to spread hope and nurture life wherever they could find it.

The naaru have vowed to bring peace and hope to all mortal civilizations and waylay the dark forces of the Void that seek to engulf creation.

The story does not tell to whom they vowed. Or why. To me it seemed like a gamble of their kind, that they saw something worth preserving while other forces, like the Legion, saught to twist or destroy. And they payed a huge price for that, with most forces of the Light being destroyed by the time frame of Legion.

Reconstruction stories can be good or bad. Just like any methods to tell a story could be good or bad.

Example of a “hero” story done right IMO:

There is no corellation between following this concept and story having to be bad. Just like outright switching the horde leader and the concept of W3 horde to Garrosh / Sylvanas direction and focus on them does not make the story of the horde automatically more diverse, interesting, and “better”.

Scarlets are not naaru, and the difference between a regular mortal user and them was mentioned before.

Plus, story of Scarlets was any decent only early on. I’ve read recently the comic written by C. Golden. The one about that undead inkeeper / ex-Scarlet. And you know what motivation she gave to them? A kid asks his sister, why did she kill a blood elf and a forsaken. And the answer was “Because!”

That’s it. No deep reasoning, no exploration, no nothing. They are bad, so having revenge against them is fine, forcing them into undeath, torturing, performing surgery experiments while keeping conscious, and eradicating them no matter old or young is good and you’re not supposed to question it, or wonder if it could go differently, here or in another timeline.

Is this the depth that could be called something good or interesting? Not to me, but hey, different people like different things.

There was an old comment about various forms of Light practices:

is holy of prists and paladin is same energy?
Both priests and paladins can wield the Holy Light. However, not all wield it through the same means (e.g., Elune, An’she)

So the end product (Holy Light spells, etc) is the same, just the philosophy that masters it different?
I think for game-related reasons, yes. Examples that come to mind are night elf priests and tauren paladins.

© https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blizzard_lore_posts#SeanCopeland

So, no.

No, you just can take a look at the story of Mereldar. [actually I am not quite sure what “no / yes” means in the beginning of a sentence. What I mean is that the idea of what I say is not quite what you suggested, sorry if it was confusing]

“The Seven Kingdoms” (In-game book):
…
Though each of the city-states became prosperous in its own right, the empire of Arathor had effectively disintegrated. As each nation developed its own customs and beliefs, they became increasingly segregated from one another. King Thoradin’s vision of a unified humanity had faded at last.

And among all of that what was the original story of the alliance (although this story predates the game events by a lot), with backstabbing, prejudices, internal struggles, etc., is where the ideas of the Curch of Holy Light formed. And the idea behind it was kind of the same as draenei and naaru: you have flawed characters with a lot of less than good motivations and ideas, and a force that slightly nudges them in a direction away from fully succumbing to 100% negative, sometimes successfully sometimes not.

They should’ve been. But the current narrative team placed it right next to the original WoW-W3 vision of the horde.

Actually, to think about it, all that I wrote is actually more me thinking about what could a different story team make out of the foundations of WoW lore.

I think you are correct that the current team would not do much better regardless if the warp naaru, or keep a mockery of what they were in the story.

gl hf

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