Mage vs Warlock in pve (dungeon)

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
1

Can someone share whats the difference between these 2 casters in dungeons and raids (dungeons particularly), I main a lock and i’ve been getting some issues lately which I’m not sure if the mage is any better.

In dungeon, I’m mostly doing DOTS and shadow bolt rinse and repeat, life tap regularly which put me into danger as hp goes down real fast and DOTs/shadow bolt drains down mana super fast… I’ve been cutting down on some DOTS to save mana, sometimes only shadow bolting without DOTs, also uses alot of bandages in between and food/water, which lead to another issue as i spend like 6-7g on every replenish (mage will have no issue).

I started out mage a little and didn’t like the frequent sit to regen, which lock apparently also have the issue (maybe lesser, or coz i’m not good at draining life/mana/life tap)

So I’d like to know for dungeons in particular, do mages have issues like these? and also their rotation do they frostbolt all the way 1 button? (hoping to get as easy rotation as possible).

tyvm!

2

The lack of +hit talent for Destruction school spells (aka Shadowbolt) is the major Warlock bummer for me, considering how much +spellhit casters need. It pretty much forces you into the 3-piece Bloodvine crafted set + getting quite a bit of lucky gear drops/wins in dungeons+raids. Mages have +6 frost/fire & +10 arcane talented +hit, & Shadow Priests have +10 shadow +hit talents. Boomkins have a similar problem with no talented +spellhit options in Vanilla/Classic.

On the plus side, minus the +hit talent issue for Destruction/Shadowbolt, you can build a pretty sweet Destruction Shadowbolt-oriented & Demonology spec that allows you to ditch the pet for +15% shadow damage buff for 30 minutes. Pets are mostly a headache and liability in raids, & even dungeons to a lesser extent - but great solo & such.

3

  1. money on food/water - tip a mage 1.5g for 3 stacks of food and 3 stacks of water, this should get you through a dungeon drinking between every pull/every other pull

  2. a lot of dungeon mobs are dying quickly with everyone’s gear being at higher levels now, it’s not worth dotting the skulls target in trash pulls at all at this point (unless you’re getting the vast majority of the ticks), rather throw up a corruption on the x target and remaining targets as the tank builds his initial aggro, then shadowbolt spam the targets in their kill order, don’t lifetap during the fight if you don’t have to as this is valuable shadowbolt casting time

  3. AoE pulls - as the tank is positioning the AoE pulls throw out a couple corruptions onto the mobs, after a few seconds if the tank is good start using hellfire (RoF if the tank is struggling with aggro) if he’s really struggling with aggro consider not using AoE abilities, the reason you open with corruptions or CoAs on the targets even if they die quickly is because you can’t start AoEing right away or you’ll rip aggro so this is just downtime that can be used to put up a couple dots and gain some extra dps (CoA can be handy here for not as good tanks due to the lower initial dmg ticks even if the mob dies before it goes most/all of its duration)

3B) big talent for AoE is the 70% reduced pushback from dmg while using RoF/hellfire, this talent is basically a must to have good hellfire ticks in a dungeon setting

  1. you don’t need a ton of hit for dungeons as most of the mobs are not lvl 63 (lvl 63 mobs are where you cap out at 16% hit)

  2. in dungeons you will never beat and equally geared/skilled mage in AoE, they are the kings of it, we can still do good AoE dmg but are more dependent on a good tank since if we pull aggro we don’t have slows to kite the mobs

4

Don’t bother dotting in dungeons. The mobs usually don’t live long enough for them to tick out. Just shadowbolt.

5

Why are you spending this gold. I play a mage and every mage I know would supply water and food for free in a dungeon/raid group.

6

Best bet is to go with an affliction leveling build up until your late 50’s. The main one is called a drain tanking build:

https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warlock/3500250502201005--54500051000001/0BEaaaHKmfpffffSm2ACGbbbbhq

Your usual rotation will be to use Siphon Life, Corruption, and Drain Life on things. Life Tap when you need mana but try to do it between pulls. Start each fight with nearly full mana but down on health, maybe 50-80% health. Your Siphon Life and Drain Life will fill you back up, let your healer know you’ll be doing this so they don’t waste mana healing you up if they don’t have it to spare.

In instances I’d skip Siphon Life on trash, they will die too quickly to bother.

You should only Shadowbolt when you get instant ones through Nightfall. Both Corruption and Drain Life will give you a chance for instant Shadowbolts and you’ll get them pretty often. Drain Soul right before the mob dies if you need shards but only use rank 1, higher ranks are really a waste of mana.

It’s pretty much a waste of mana to use Curse of Agony on trash mobs and I wouldn’t use Immolate either if you spent all those points on improving your shadow damage. Get as much +spell damage and +shadow damage as you can, there’s a lot of lower-level crafted gear which will make your shadow spells very efficient. It will improve your Life Taps a ton and help you drain back that health.

Done properly you shouldn’t ever need to bandage or eat/drink as a warlock. Your mana and health will go back-and forth constantly and you can keep killing forever like that.

On bosses your rotation will be Siphon Life, Corruption, Shadowbolt, Curse of Shadow. Spam Shadowbolt and Lifetap/Drain Life when you need to. You want to end up at zero mana around the time the boss dies, then you can Lifetap to 50% health and mana and eat/drink up.

Raiding is a different matter entirely. Best build for that is, generally a DS/Ruin build.

https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warlock/25002-2050300142301-52500051020001

You’ll sacrifice a Succubus and your usual rotation will be Curse of Elements or Curse of Shadow, Corruption, spam Shadowbolt, Lifetap when necessary.

There are also deep Destruction builds that are worth it now that AQ is out but are a pain in MC and BWL since many mobs have fire resistance.

7

DoT’s are mostly pointless in dungeons. Things don’t live long enough to justify the GCD on them most the time. Mages have stronger burst AoE but their single target damage is similar.

8

Pretty much all of this. Also, remember that the debuff limit is going to come into play in raids more than elsewhere. You’ll have a spot for your curse, and maybe one or two dots, but don’t count on it. This makes spell hit even more important.

Pre-raid, Bloodvine is the best, but you can switch them out as you start raiding and get more spell hit gear. As you start raiding BWL and AQ20, you can get a lot of good gear that has spell hit on it.

10

Unfortunately it’s hard to drop bloodvine effectively for pve until naxx. Hooray for looking like a homeless person. Unless I’m missing something the best that can be done in nearly bis gear (preference for me is staff over sword/offhand) is still only 15% hit.

11

Destruction specs are for raiding.

For dungeons, Master Demonologist specs tend to be a lot better. Succubus + Shadow Bolt is more damage than Sacrifice + Shadow Bolt and allows the use of Seduction for CC. Indeed, knowing how to use your pets makes you significantly more useful in dungeon content - the Voidwalker to protect yourself while using Hellfire and the Felhunter to counter/dispel.

Fear (in any Warlock spec) is essential to master. Fear an enemy, Recklessness to bring it back if it runs too far, another Curse to send it fleeing again.

If you’re unconcerned with raiding, Soul Link specs can actually tank in 5-man. However, this requires slightly different gearing and a fair bit of effort to handle multiple enemies.

12

yea im aware of that, gearing bloodvine for now…:slight_smile:

I don’t have Master Demonologist, coz the guide I read recommended to not use pets in dungeons, and DS a succubus…I heard a lot about SL (even in pvp) but again the guide I have gotten from wowhead doesn’t recommend it… guess its time to look for a new guide/build? :smiley:

speaking of PVP, do you think locks or mages do better in battlegrounds (or more fun)? ( I know its very subjective question, but im looking for the most generic/cliché ones) :stuck_out_tongue:

13

I enjoy fire lock for pvp but it’s all requiring respec. For dungeons I do still enjoy ds/ruin since usual groups are about aoe and cleave anyway cc is all but unheard of. Downside to much of lock life is spec dependent. SM/Ruin is a decent jack of all trades but I don’t really enjoy being just meh. SL is boring to me as well.

Mages excel in pvp. They can stall flags in ab or solo steal nodes, are good flag runners in wsg as well, and of course do well in av.

14

ohhh so mages can pvp/pve without respect?

15

Yes and no. Won’t be optimal but a pve Fire mage is still a lot scarier than a ds/ruin warlock.

16

Eh, bloodvine is droppable pretty quickly if you aren’t a tailor.

17

Sure, but you don’t actually NEED 15% hit. Also, use an addon like itemrack. I have presets for, say, normal dungeon/raid setup, a spell hit setup that maximizes hit, and one for farming outdoors, which maximizes spell power. Just as an example. Also, depending on how good your raid is, you may be switching out some gear for boss fights to get resistances, anyway.

18

I have it. Just saying item value still puts bloodvine a bit high on the set For pve with little replacement especially if you’re a tailor. For dungeons you can gear more easily for sure but to make the most of your gear, bloodvine is still one of the easiest options early and far better value than tier pieces in those slots.

19

Well, sure, if you’re only looking at tier pieces. But, for instance, the Zandalar rep chest for Warlocks is only a 1% difference in spell hit, and has more stats and other effects. BWL and AQ gear starts dropping spell hit on other items, as well. There are other options out there, once you get past MC.

20

I know bloodvine is pre-raid bis for locks, how about mages? is it the same for them?

21

I believe so but I’m not a smart man so I might be wrong.