frost seems ok, i like the idea of getting so many icicles that you just machine gun them. however really not a fan of needing to get cold snap. that is such a bad ability
As a long time mage, I donāt have as many issues with the spec trees. I think from a raid/ST fight PoV, the trees are somewhat cookie cutter, but thatās to be expected and not at all a terrible thing.
Fire allows for a more mastery focused build with improved combustion, SKB, and even Time Anomaly in the class tree coupled with from the ashes and blaster master. Ultimately, Fire appears to be the best tree when it comes to available options and talent lay out.
Frost isā¦ questionable at best. There are 8 talents you need to take to have the Icy Veins you have now. 8. Thatās absurd. You need 3 talents to have the baseline Flurry you have now, though adding a second charge and letting us keep Glacial Assault is a nice addition. But fun abilities like Ray of Ice will never be taken in a raid/m+ environment nor will any Icicle talent including Glacial Spike which pains me deeply as I love Glacial Spike.
Arcane by far makes me the saddest. Sure, itās great that we can keep the Radiant Spark/Arcane Harmony build. But I personally find the build to be degenerate and completely backwards to what Arcane has been historically. There was zero chance they intended for RS/AH to be the go to Arcane spec in SL and the only reason it still exists is because outside of a broken trinket in HFC at the end of WoD, Arcane hasnāt been relevant much since Wrath because they tried for years to make the spec the only one who cared about mana and it never worked. Now they donāt have to do that because you just press Arcane Missile over and over again and only cast Arcane Blast if you need charges which, by the way, we will have to do more often since we wonāt be getting Orb anymore which is easily the biggest issue with the tree. Why they are making Orb this capstone-worthy talent(s) that likely wouldnāt even be taken in M+ is beyond me. Sure, PvP will see some use, but Arcane PvP has been a joke since we lost good Alter Time and Deep Freeze at the end of MoP.
Finally, the class tree. What an abomination. Why are they even bothering with 3 point talents anymore? They shouldnāt exist. Not in this format. It feels forced and lazy. Why is Meteor competing with Shifting Power? Why would anyone not take Time Anomaly when Great Invis and reduced CD on Blink are the best talents out of all 9 at the bottom? Dragonās Breath being nerfed from 25 seconds to 45 seconds made sense, but because of where itās at, no one will take it anyway. You canāt take the heal in Ice Block or the shield on Blink because you simply canāt afford to use the points. And Finally, why in the world can we take Invis and Greater Invis? Unless someone can verify that GI simply replaces Invis, which is still completely stupid, then you have both and you have to take base Invis to get Alter Time, baked haste, and even Blast Wave.
Regular Invis should be baseline, not a talent, and GI should replace. Alter Time should probably take the spot at the top. All of the 3 point talents need to be looked at. And the tree needs reshuffled if these talents are what we got.
Oh, and the fact that Shimmer and RoP are choice nodes let alone still in the damn game is infuriating. Ice Floes and Incanterās are so inferior itās hilarious. Shimmer and RoP are terrible abilities that shouldāve been removed long ago. The fact they are still here and in a choice node where no choice actually exists means Blizzard is still desperate to not admit they were wrong to add these abilities in the first place.
5 Likes
Its frost specific, but you need to add Lonely Winter/Water Elemental in there too.
The only reason why I can understand that choice existing is because in PvP there is absolutely value in having the ranged freeze.
I agree itās a no brainer in PvE, though. I highly doubt WE even comes close to the 25% damage boost you get on your main abilities plus you donāt have to manage a pet. Unless I que an arena against a melee cleave, Iāll never not take Lonely Winter.
Class Tree:
The class tree is all over the place with some very bad paths and too many multi-point nodes. These nodes should probably be reduced to either 1 or 2 point nodes instead.
- I donāt like that [Time Anomaly] is actually going to be the go to choice for PvE because thatās so much RNG behind a single talent for all 3 specs.
- [Meteor] doesnāt seem very useful for Arcane or Frost
- [Shifting Power] is very weak without the conduit.
- Itās good that all Mages get to spec into [Dragonās Breath], but I feel like 45s was an over-nerf. Maybe start at 30s and work from there?
- I donāt like where [Rune of Power]/[Incanterās Flow] and [Icy Flows]/[Shimmer] are positioned considered theyāre absolutely mandatory
- I feel like [Ice Nova] is an extremely weak button for what it tries to do. 2s freeze and lackluster damage just doesnāt make me want to spec into it ever.
- [Improved Frost Nova] shouldnāt be a talent and should just be baseline.
- [Greater Invisibility] is actually a pretty nice addition for all 3 specs
Fire Tree:
Fire imo is the best of the 3 spec trees, but could still use a few tweaks.
- Too many points wasted on granting both [Fire Blast] and [Phoenix Flames] additional charges. [Fire Blast] being a talent is less of a problem because itās mandatory to progress on the tree, but [Phoenix Flames] being a talent so far down is weird to say the least.
- [Flame On] feels like it should just be baseline or at least a 1 point node.
- [Critical Mass] feels like it should be baseline or at least a 1 point node.
- [Conflagration] should be deleted from the game.
- Who in their right mind would ever talent into [Improved Blazing Barrier]?
- I donāt like the idea of managing a debuff in [Improved Scorch] and also donāt like that the movement speed is only granted in case it crits
- [Pyroclasm] and [Pyromaniac] should probably swap places.
- [Tempered Flames] looks terrible from just looking at it. Weāll have to know once we have access to sims, but I donāt look forward to be hard casting [Pyroblast] all the time AND giving up on [Combustion] uptime.
- I donāt really think [Tinder] has a place in PvE.
Frost Tree:
I feel like it has potential, but not nearly enough points to get what we need.
- Too many talents improving a single spell. 3 points to make [Brain Freeze] do what it does on live plus 2 (or 3 if you consider the choice node) to improve it further.
- [Wintertide] and [Snowstorm] should be 2 point nodes instead of 3.
- [Improved Blizzard] is sadly still a nerfed version before 9.2.
- You can spec into [Snowstorm] without [Cone of Cold].
- [Icy Veins] is a weak cooldown and we need to spend too many points to try and make it not suck and we donāt have nearly enough.
- Please kill [Icy Propulsion] or at least remove the "must be in [Icy Veins] requirement*.
Arcane Tree:
Honestly, I didnāt even try to look into it.
5 Likes
Zzzzā¦ Classic MoP couldnāt come any faster.
3 Likes
Wait does this mean no more proc munching?! If you can have two charges of Flurry, and now itās baseline instant, am I reading that right?!
Class tree is meh, Spec trees are fine; I found builds I will be fine with if thatās roughly how they go, but no more proc munching?! Best thing to happen to Frost in years, if thatās really the case.
I donāt see how thatās going to stop proc munching.
Lonely Winter and Summon water elemental should not be talents, no one ever takes Summon Water ele over Lonely winter for any type of single target or non large AOE situations.
PLEASE just put water ele as baseline and just make the 25% damage baseline it feels bad that you never get to take water ele ever when there are so many fun and interesting interactions with this pet that we will never get to experience.
It feels bad having to spend 12 points in the top tier just get the baseline kit back. Main mage tree has WAY too many 3 point abilities in the way of the things you want its fine that they cost 3 its just the way its organized is what I am confused about. no clear order in the tree at all, also where is the baseline point depending on your spec?
There are some really good things for Frost though. Frigid Shattering, Arctic Piercing, Watertide, Snowstorm. Very poor choices at the bottom, the talents are ultra lack luster and exactly the same thing we have now. Some of them like Thermal Void should just be baseline with Icy Veins as it is by far the weakest mage cooldown.
3 Likes
Iām the opposite, I hate the Kyrian build. Hope it gets changed or isnāt tuned to be our go-to.
4 Likes
Yeah, Iām having trouble driving down into the base tree. These connections are terrible.
1 Like
The Frost tree has far too many mandatory choices just to get the baseline going.
Super quick feedback so far:
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Every single talent above the 8 Required is mandatory, except Frostbite. Thatās 10 mandatory talents before moving into the 2nd half of the tree. The tree connections need to be adjusted or some of these talents need to be merged together or culled. There currently feels like 1/3 of the tree is mandatory spec picks, 1/3 are mandatory Icy Veins picks, then 1/3 are fillers that are forced to be chosen to get to the capstone that you want. The tree is currently far too rigid and doesnāt provide the flexibility that the new trees are intended to provide.
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Blizzard and Cold Snap being mandatory picks in order to get to the 2nd middle tier and access Lonely winter hurts. If thereās a single target encounter, players should be able to choose to not select Blizzard. Cold Snap should be an optional off-shoot.
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We require 4 talents just to get Flurry working as intended. Winterās Chill should be merged with Flurry or Brain Freeze.
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Icy Propulsion needs to go. It cannot remain, even in its slightly watered-down form in this tree. It is putting far too much emphasis on Rune of Power still and becomes essentially mandatory. Either Icy Propulsion goes or Thermal Void goes, as both in this state do not resolve the issues Frost has now and in this new tree. Edit: Also adding that Time Anomaly in the class tree causing random Icy Veins also means Icy Propulsion and Thermal Void are additionally inflated in strength, making Time Anomaly also mandatory.
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Following from the above, IV, IP, and TV are placing an incredible amount of focus on keeping uptime of IV. This makes balancing the spec harder as if 100% uptime (or very high %) is intended based on this design, then outside of IV Frost fails to function sufficiently. It would also be great to not be forced to play the same rotation as we have in Shadowlands, we need variety.
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Wintertide, Chain Reaction, and Arctic Piercing are also playing on the āyou need to have as much uptime as possibleā design. These are very punishing in encounters with lots of downtime or getting unlucky with procs, which is very common for Frost.
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Hailstones is incredible, and gives a much needed boost to potential Glacial Spike builds. Although Glacial Spike is significantly undertuned still.
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There are too many talents tied to buff Icy Veins. These need to be culled or thinned out.
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Ray of Frost is still a dead talent.
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It feels weird to have to select a choice between Slick Ice and Freezing Rain.
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Splitting Ice is too far to the right of the tree and is currently quite inaccessible if players head on a more AoE centric route on the left side. It needs to be moved more central and accessible.
4 Likes
This is the most likely āstandardā Iāve been able to come up with based on this iteration of the tree. Shifting Power and Meteor simply arenāt strong enough, DB was nerfed pretty hard anyway, GI and Blink CD reduction are the best 2 nodes out of all the bottom 9, and TA isnāt awful just heavy RNG.
You basically canāt take either of the 3 point talents in the middle of the tree. Mass Polymorph is cute but Blast Wave will almost always be better. Ice Nova is too weak to take outside of Frost. The Haste and Crit nodes will likely be mando due to throughput. RoP and Shimmer are mando even though they should both be outright removed from the game.
I have a feeling this entire tree is gonna look way different before Alpha ends.
5 Likes
Yeah, thatās about the directions I was leaning as well, there are just a few choices in there Iām not fond of taking.
I know people swear by it but Iāve not been a fan of Alter Time. I use it, but not very often and I like the feel of it.
Edit: For a Frost Mage, I feel like Shatter would be a better choice at the top. Cone is nice, but additional crit feels better for Frost, IMO.
The mage talents are completely more mucked upā¦so all mages get all specsā¦so fire has some frost and arcane,arcane has some fire and frostā¦why are all the talents cross the boardā¦thatās insane !!!..I was considering going arcane butā¦never mindā¦my elemental shaman will literally kick a mages butt nowā¦
1 Like
Iāve looked over the tree for the last hour and I legit think that right now there are 2 builds for PvE. One for M+/AoE and one for ST. Thatās it. Unless Icicles are tuned differently, you will never take a single talent that deals with them. In fact, the difference between the two builds is 3 talents. Thatās all.
Frost is in a weird spot cuz it could easily go live as is, but as is means the whole bottom right of the tree will be gray all of DF.
Correct, you will always take Shatter over CoC at the top for Frost. The additional crit is necessary.
1 Like
Iām a Frost mage first and foremost, so it seemed a natural choice. Thatās one of those choices for the other two specs that just doesnāt feel right though.
Also, Blast Wave or Mass Polyā¦ ewwww.
A few observations about the Class and Arcane Trees. Iāll preface this by stating that I mostly play PVP, so Iām coming at this from a PVP mindset.
Class Tree:
- The addition of Shatter is nice, but Cone of Cold seems like a weird talent choice considering Slow is a much better spell. If anything Cone should be baseline or itās damage needs to be vastly increased to even compete.
- Incredibly awkward that Remove Curse essentially gatekeeps Spellsteal, Slow and Rune of Power/Incanterās Flow. Remove Curseās position needs to be moved off to the side or switch places with something like the Shimmer/Ice Floes node.
- The left side of the tree has some neat talent ideas like Rigid Ice and the Mirror Image buffs, but the right side is so overloaded with talents that seem mandatory for the class to function that it can never really be explored. I found myself wondering what was worth giving up to take something new and found that I wasnāt willing to part with anything. As much as Iād like to try things like Reabsorption or Accumulative Shielding, thereās just no extra points to do it.
- Spellsteal no longer states that Arcane has a lower mana cost. Iām not sure if this is a tooltip error, but if not thatās a huge nerf. Similarly, Incantation of Swiftness is nerfed for Arcane, but Greater Invis is not longer Arcane exclusive.
- Tome of Rhonin and Tome of Antonidas both seem incredibly lazy, especially since there is a lack of Fire representation in the tree. They could have thrown a couple Fire abilities in there and made it much more interesting.
- Too many three point talents. Frigid Winds, Flow of Time, Diverted Energy, Cryo Freeze and Tempest Barrier all seem like 1 or 2 point talents, but for some reason all require 3 each, wasting a ton of points to even get these talents to their baseline potential. Something like Cryo-Freeze doesnāt need to be anymore than 30% HP, just make it a 1 point talent. Frigid Winds should just be 1 point 10% slow like it is on live, why is it 3.
- Mass Polymorph seems like more of a flavor ability and doesnāt seem to have any real use. Itās 10 yard range, doesnāt go throw LoS, and still needs to be cast. I canāt imagine a scenario where you would wanna cast this over regular Polymorph. Iām probably in the minority here, but I think Blast Wave is vastly superior, especially as Arcane you could prevent 3 separate casts by using CS, Supernova and Blast Wave. Not to mention, while Blast Waveās knockback is pretty bad, if they were knocked into the air by Supernova beforehand you could probably create some big distance.
- Spells like Ice Nova and Time Anomaly still being talents in addition to being so low on the tree is an odd decision. People have stated that these abilities are very unpopular and they seem to keep wanting to make it work. Nether Tempest for Arcane is another spell thatās really low on the tree and is incredibly bad.
- The cap stone talents in general seem weaker than the talent before them except for Shifting Power. Greater Invis is much better than Time Anomaly, and DB is far better than Meteor. It almost makes you not want to take any of the last tier talents which feels really bad as the last talents are meant to be the big ones.
Arcane Tree:
- Nerfing both Slow and Chronoshift for the sake of Frigid Winds is gonna feel AWFUL especially as stated before, you canāt even get close to taking Frigid Winds as you need so much for the other side of the tree. Additionally, nerfing Primastic Barrier just to make Improved Primastic Barrier into a talent is incredibly lazy.
- Both Evocation and Mana Gem are both way too low on the tree.
- Locking Arcane Tempo behind possibly the worst spell in the game, Arcane Familiar, is an astoundingly bad choice. Similar to how it forces you to play with Rule of Threes which prevents CC procs.
- Arcane Barrage was split into 2 additional points in the form of Improved Arcane Barrage and Mana Adept, Meaning that in order to have Arcane Barrage be the same as on live you need to spend 2 points for the ability to be BASELINE effectiveness?
- Really missed opportunity to make a Mark of Aluneth/Touch of the Magi choice node considering there appears to be a fair number of people that donāt like TotM. Also where are the Legion artifact abilities? Why does every talent in Arcane seem like itās baseline abilities broken up into smaller pieces or pre-existing talents and legendaries. Thereās literally nothing new besides Arcane Tempo. Where are the Legion artifact abilities that people loved?
- I donāt raid or do M+ much so this will be my only comment on PVE, but why does the tree seem forced to play Harmony/Radiant Spark? Was it really that popular that it seems like the only PVE build possible now?
8 Likes
Itās not thatās itās popular in the sense that people like to play it, itās just good so people play it. Blizzard is leaving it in the game because this is the first time since HFC that Arcane has been good in PvE which is only the case because they canāt make the spec good as before WoD it was Wrath.
2 Likes