Lets be honest, Fire is absolutely absurd right now, and even the guys at 3.4k are saying the same thing. Blizzard, nerf fire. jesus christ. It’s literally no fun at all to play against them.
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PVE or PVP?
PVE: Cap our uncapped AOE and it suddenly isn’t “S tier” for M+
PVP: Grounding totem & purge combustion.
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Fire is stupid in pvp at the moment and needs tuning, all the other specs are underwhelming.
Mage is underwhelming in pve.
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Yeah I’m going to go ahead and chalk you down as a ignorant troll and may god have mercy on your soul.
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good for you, fire mage still needs adjustments in pvp.
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No more than other classes that are critting for over 15k
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I’ve said this in another thread. It was ignored. But I’ll say it again:
People need to start understanding what I like to refer to as the ‘zen moment’ or ideal scenario; its when for example, you engage with a target with the winds blowing in your favor, that is when you have all your cds ready, when you have no one countering you, when they move predictably and you have abilities ready to counter it back and you land every hit without interruption. In summation, its when you can deal your MAXIMUM potential, perfect procs, perfect positioning, etc
Right now in wow, various classes have different zen moments in the game and for MOST classes, its counterable. Lets say a warlock is hardcasting at you from 40 yards away, you manage to charge, stun, interrupt a cast and silence him for x seconds, he uses his gateway, you use a leap or something, he casts a spell and you deflect it, etc. There are loads of ways to counter classes in the game.
Fire mage is different. They fall into a unique category all their own, in which the steps they need to take in order to fulfill their zen moment are based on procs and executed via instant casts. This means, they’re not counterable in the traditional way you would counter all other classes. The ONLY counter is stun, immunities like aspect of the turtle or bubble, flat silences or incapacitates. If you’re one of the classes that don’t have many of those abilities - or - if you are in a pvp scenario where you’ve already used it on another player, like the healer, then the mage is literally uncounterable.
If we’re talking arcane mage or frost mage, they actually have to CAST a spell, giving you an interrupt chance. Arcane power or icy veins provides benefit over a duration - meaning you can dispell it. Fire is built so that even tho a few of their abilities can be dispelled, they’re literally designed to use them within 1 second of gaining the proc, and unless you have the reaction time and conveniently timed globals, you won’t get to dispel them at all.
Is it a coincidence that ret pallies, who are also gaining great value from instant cast procs, are falling into the same category of frustration as fire mages? You tell me if what I’m describing is just coincidental.
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that was actually spot on!
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More than boomkin?
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Thank you. I’m glad to be able to share it with others.
It’s all about those few classes that are able to get into their zen moments much easier, where you can’t really stop them from doing so. A warrior charges you, distance is how you counter it. You get range and suddenly you’re countering him from being able to reach his full potential. Think of classes where you can’t directly counter it, such as MM hunter? Are MM hunters also considered really powerful right now? How do you counter aimed shot?
I think hunters are less of a problem becuase once you jump them, their defenses are so low, so they have somewhat of a fair trade that in exchange for their incredible power, they can die pretty fast with a little coordination. Also, if they choose to evade and kite, it interrupts their dps. They can’t very well cast aimed shot or sniper shot while running away. A fire mage however does not lose his usual rotation from running. With shimmer, no penalty at all, and even if they blink, its just a global penalty of one second becuase they have instant casts. Imagine if like a hunter they had to actually stand still to cast instead of instants - totally different story.
You could keep all their dmg numbers exactly the same, but give players a way to counter them, to make it harder for them to reach their full potential and I think players would find it more fair.
I proposed an idea a couple days ago that fire should be redesigned to have a range mechanic where the longer fire spells spent flying through the air would give them greater damage and the closer they were, reduced damage. On paper, they would function almost exactly the same as they do now, however, players can choose to rush or pressure a mage in close quarters to reduce their potential. Its better than nothing. They still have a barrier (which lets be honest, they shouldn’t have), nova, db, ib, alter time and cheat death… so its not like they’d really suffer with such a mechanic built in. They would have to kite… LIKE THE REST OF US.
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Like nearly all other classes? and only during combustion…
Strange, I guess I should remove fireball off my bar.
Are you kidding me? Any of the 5 things you listed during a Combustion and how much damage is that mage going to do?
You messed that up, it’s “counters”, not counter. You listed a singular as if there was only one way, THEN LISTED 5 OTHER THINGS.
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Mage is currently terrible in PvP.
It’s the most useless class in RBGs, bringing only burst since our control spells are broken easily in this DoT heavy meta.
In 2’s it’s only viable in double dps comps, carried mostly by rogues.
In 3’s, it’s only viable in a few comps, again carried by rogues.
While Fire is annoying and by far the strongest PvP spec in arena (Arcane better in RBGs), it’s not “absurd”.
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Nobody cares about pvp.
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I would prefer they just uncap other people because capped aoe is dumb af.
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Once every minute and 30s at the minimum. Oh god however could you handle that. If only you could grounding totem most of their burst, purge off their offensive cd, and purge their procs? But no that would be totally ridiculous, you’d have to have some skill in pvp to do that…
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Ah, the ole’ condescension, degradation, invalidation technique; a wow forums classic!
Technically, if they changed the value of pyroblast to deal 486 thousand damage, your argument would still stand. Just purge, ground totem or dispel it, no big deal, right? You’re not looking at the broader picture of things. I also mentioned purging already in the post above.
Mages are not always foolish, they can juke out kicks and other defensives. If said mage chose to just dps without combustion and got you or someone else low on health, you’d have no choice but to use your grounding totem. If you’re in a bg, there’s lots of classes using lots of cooldowns and if you try to save your healer it’s going to come out one way or another. If you’re in 2’s and your healer is about to die, its coming out. If the mages friend is also a caster who’s using their burst, you’re going to use your totem for them. If its 3’s, etc there’s even greater chance you’re going to use it. Waiting for a player to use certain abilities before you burst them is common practice for any mage - you don’t need me to tell you that.
After that totem goes, say the mage casts triune ward and combustion at a minimum, your follow-up purge now only has a 25% chance to dispel the combust. If the mage generates the fireball proc, you now have just a 20% chance to dispel combustion. If the mages friend has any type of ability such as healing buffs, HoT’s or anything at all, that chance to dispel combustion goes down even further. If the mage is with a resto druid, you have no chance to dispel combustion. If the mage attacks from invis, you have no dispel opportunity. If the mage (or friend) just interrupted your stormkeeper, you’re locked out of dispel.
But lets not forget that not every class is a shaman and not every class has a grounding totem or a purge. Every class handles the situation differently. What this conversation is about - is that out of many various situations in which any class is about to deal their full damage potential, you’d have a (mathematically) easier time countering it, than you would a fire mage - because they have instant casts. Instant casts on a fire mage are immune to counterspells, interrupts, roots, snares, knockbacks and kiting/range.
Countering options:
Any melee class: Kite, range, root, snare, disarm, stun/incapacitate, knockback or use defensive.
Any caster class: Counterspell, stun, drop target (during cast), dispel, knockback (during cast) or use defensive (they ALL have to cast/channel something)
Fire mage: stun/incapacitate, dispel or defensive.
Fire mage is the only class in the game with the least counter options to their burst. In addition, blink removes one of them. Instants are consumed instantly giving the player just about 1 second to dispel it before it is consumed. Defensives will usually work, but at high CD cost, depending on your class. They are also the ONLY caster class that loses 0% of their burst rotation/potential when actively being beaten down by a melee class - and the only mage spec that has an incapacitate (DB) ready for such an event.
In your haste to affirm that one only needs to have pvp skill to counter mages, you forgot that mages might also have pvp skill.
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Fire mage does very little damage out side of combust. What little damage they do have is in instant casts which if they use outside of combust makes their combust window incredibly easy to counter. So if they hold combust they should hold at least 2 fireblasts charges as well. Which means 1 pyroblast at a time and only from fireball.
Idk why you are rambling on about this as this whole paragraph is irrelevant.
You are correct, but your job would be to live long enough and punish me for doing very little damage while trying to get my partner to mostly force your cooldowns. Its like a mage mirror, the first mage to klepto loses.
If they hold barrier for combust, punish them. It has a 25s cd and a minute duration. You have at least 35s to purge it and wreck their hp pool if they choose to go that route. Which would be dangerous because then you can just kick poly and they are forced to barrier if their setup is ruined.
Unless you also have a mage. Or a priest.
But if you live, and play well you win. Mages lose a lot of damage without meteor in combust and if they meteor out of invis you have time to react.
No, most ranged classes do have a purge and unlike shamans also have real defensives. You also have at least 1 other person’s worth of defensives.
How do you counter a rogue opening on you? CC? Do it to a mage. Can’t purge rogues. How do you react to a ret? Oh you cc? You kite? Wow. Line the mage or cc him.
roots, snares, knockbacks and kiting/range? Are you lacking a brain? These all work. Slow him and run behind a pillar. Fire mages do have a range on their spells and its 40yds btw. Knock back works great in dalaran sewers arena at the very least. And the arena with the two levels.
This might surprise you but you can stun a mage during combust, you can also shadowmeld it too. It just requires what people call a good reaction time.
Most people don’t play blink. They play shimmer. I would go as far to say that if not against double rogue 90% of mages play shimmer. Especially since blazing soul does not apply all the triune barriers and only 1.
Thats how the game works, you trade CDs. Are your 3 minute defensives not worth living? After all a mage is weak out of combust and if you play fine you are plenty of able to kill them before combust comes back up.
I disagree, shadow priests have high burst potential without needing to cast with damnation and pooling insanity for spamming devouring plague.
Its pvp. And mages are not broken, it would be your skill. I might not be the best at pvp but I’d be happy to take a crap on your rating if you posted on your main. Alternatively, if this is your main then thats quite sad for you to be making these comments.
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I listed stun/incapacitate as one of the ways you can counter a fire mage.
Listen, I’m not going to argue. If you’re going to say that I’m “lacking a brain” and then try to reference my arena rating and call me sad as form of demeaning me in order to gain leverage in an argument and so on, I’m just not going to respond to that. You’re a fire mage and you don’t like the thread, I get it.
Anyway, I agree with the OP that fire mages feel really strong. My opinion however is that they don’t need a nerf, but that the mechanics of their dps execution are inherently flawed in their favor. I believe that instant cast proc abilities in the game overall are causing frustrations among the wow playerbase. Ret pallies also excel at instant cast procs and are coincidentally a hot topic among the wow community. While druid convoke is not an instant cast, calculating in the reaction time needed to interrupt it and also considering that the druid will at least get a few seconds of value out of the spell puts it in the grey area alongside instant casts and this is why they are also a hot topic right now. Any spell that gives you considerable value instantly, even if its progressively channeled, is problematic. I believe that they aren’t coincidences but that these issues are real and should be addressed by blizzard if they want to make players feel that the game is more fair for everyone.
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the same guys that kept saying “Everything is ok” “Hunter is ok” “rogues are fine” “all classes are viable” (Venruki, stills says it i think), etc, first 3 weeks of SL? lol
fire is absolutely busted and there’s no point arguing in a forum no devs read about how you think it’s fine.
I promise you it’s getting nerfs after awc lol
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