M+ Season 2 - Bit of a rant

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
1

I will preface this post by stating that I am a casual M+ player. I likely represent the average player base as I sit at 2626io with only timed +10s on my character - something I think most M+ players achieve or hope to achieve.

I read the upcoming changes for M+ in regards to keystones not depleting “below 12” after hitting 2850io. The way I interpret this is that 12 is the lowest a keystone will deplete to - as in if I do a +13 and we fail, it will go to +12. If I try the +12 and fail, it will stay a 12. This seems like a reasonable change for those in the upper class of M+ players who want to push.

What about us casuals? When I was trying to get the last of my portal 10’s completed here was my experience:

1.) Finally through RNG get the +10 key for the dungeon I wanted.

2.) Make my own group trying hard to research the players applying for their IO or alt IO and picking the highest ilvl from those who I thought would perform.

3.) Have an overzealous tank try a MDI style pull wanting a lust/timewarp without previously communicating to anyone - mega wipe, challenger’s peril kicked the timer in the coconuts, healer leaves and BOINK - my key is a 9.

4.) Now I need to re-make the group for my +9 (back to step 2).

5.) Yay I completed my 9! (Not always the case) and then wham - wrong dungeon for the +10 key. Now my options - run the 10 and hope I get the dungeon I want after timing it. Try to pug into a +10 in the dungeon I’m looking for (Oh wait I don’t have a timed 10 on that key and due to the massive wall of text above ^ I don’t get taken because everyone wants the best chance for completion.)

Trying to get score or portals on specific dungeons is really rough for casual players due to the keystone depletion and randomization upon completion. It feels really bad to fail a key, especially when it’s one you want for score, portal or a specific piece of gear you want to farm up at heroic lvl.

The fix? Stop incentivizing players to leave groups when they have specific goals that wont be met. Please… stop depleting keys - all keys… There are plenty of punishments for failing to time or complete a key such as your time, lower crests, no score increase, no portal. There is already an NPC in the game who will deplete your key if you find it too difficult.

Please don’t randomize my key after I complete but fail to time it. Let me talk to the NPC after a key fails with a dialogue like:

“This keystone was too hard for me, can you lower it?” (Same dungeon, lower key lvl)
“I would like to try this keystone again” (Same dungeon, same key lvl)
“I need a break from this place” (Random dungeon, same or lower key lvl)

I don’t want a free pass, I don’t want the dungeons to be easier. I like the difficulty, I like the challenge. But RNG keystone drops that deplete upon failure and need to be levelled back up only to hope for RNG again just makes the experience very grindy. People value their time and that is why they leave groups when their specific goal (score, portal etc.) are not going to be met.

Imagine if you had a Mythic raid group going and you wiped on Sikran - one of your healers leaves so you have to pug in - but then you have to start the raid from 1st boss again. I know it’s not the exact same - but it’s similar enough - that would feel awful.

Please fix M+, I love it and I see the community dying.

/endofrant

4 Likes
2

I can understand why it’s +12 and for that reason it will never apply to me. I am someone who personally prefers to grind the same dungeon out over and over again until I achieve what I am looking for whether it’s the elusive RNG gods hating me over a trinket or secondary-spec equipment, or if it is to just get the portal. But, even with a guild, even in participation in discords for mythic key groups, I feel like once you miss the train you’re either not considered for the level you are capable of or it’s simply too late in the season if you’re not pushing 2800+ by then.

I can’t speak for other classes, but I know Ret is a low skill spec to do an amazing amount of burst and sustained damage in S1 compared to other classes, we are a dime a dozen and over-represent the higher end specs in mid key range. However, I feel the same sort of angst about trying to do my own keys whether it’s with a guild, discord based community or PUG. I don’t know that it needs to be exclusively for 12+ and I’d personally be fine with key depletion, but having the option to at minimum once reaching KSM to lock in the dungeon I have a key for would be a welcome reprieve from the slot machine style nonsense. There have been so many posts and ideas on how to ‘fix’ M+ and I don’t really care for any of that. I just want to login, attempt to complete a specific goal for gearing, and move on to the next goal. This personally, would keep me logged in much longer than getting Mists for the 4000th time which I can clear fairly easily with a brain-dead level at the +8 range to attempt to get back to +10 of CoT to try and get a portal and fail, only to lead to Somehow Mists Returned over and over which I then eventually just kind of say not today, maybe tomorrow, maybe next week and by the time I know it the season is over.

Kind of a weird take to throw Raid skip and now a raid portal into renown progression for this tier, but then not address the portal issues in M+ at 10. I think it works fine as a 12 no depletion, but for the love of god, please stop making me do the braindead easy dungeons at +8 for the chance to get +10 in the right dungeon. Bonus points for when things go sideways and you’re stuck with a dead +9 key in a dungeon very few items drop from that anyone cares about.

1 Like
3

I think picking your own key is fine, but they would need to do something like:

Vault is now 1/3/6 keys required. The same dungeon cannot apply to the vault count more than twice.

If you don’t do something like that, you’ll end up where the same key is selected every single time.

Keys in the reward progression zone should continue to deplete. If not then the rewards will have to be stretched and likely to a point where players who can’t push up to a 10 and time them consistently would never see Myth track again.

4

I’m not necessarily talking about picking your own key. I meant more like: Once I have my Mists +10 key in my bags and I really want to time Mists on a 10, if I run it and fail it, it will become a Mists +9. Ok fine, but when I finish that +9 Mists it becomes a +10 or +11 something else, Necrotic say. Now I have to finish that Necrotic and hope for RNG to get back to Mists - which can take a long time, only to finally get that Mists at a 10 again and have it fail on first pull to a 9.

At the end of a dungeon having it not drop a level if you failed to complete, being able to try it again at same level (if you completed but didn’t time), or to randomly select a new one would be refreshing.

5

Yeah you just want to be able to pick what you run. You fail the 10 mists, you want to run it back at a 9 mists, so you time the 9 mists and want to run the 10 mists again.

That’s wanting to pick your dungeon. Which is fine, but it needs some guardrails against degen practices.

6

Why? This is because those who got +12s timed “beat” progression. The system scales infinitely, but they timed the keys up to the point it was scaled for.

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Yes they beat progression. And I agree that they should be able to keep trying to push keys without punishing them for failure beyond a key bricking to 12. They do represent a very small% of the M+ player base though.

To sum up my entire frustration - If I earn a +10 key in a dungeon that I really want to finish at a +10. I should be able to try that dungeon as many times as it takes to finish it. Leave my key difficulty and dungeon selection alone until I successfully time it - then give me a new random one to do. Leave it up to me to downgrade if it’s too hard.

Another idea could be that you get a dungeon keystone with no difficulty assigned and you can open that dungeon at X-level difficulty based on your rating. Once you complete the dungeon you get a new random key which you can also pick the difficulty on based on your rating.

Ultimately there are so many things that punish M+ players, your key depleting in level doesn’t need to be one.

8

Then they should remove all rewards from completing them untimed.

9

I half agree with you. They should still drop gear, they were completed. You can fail a mythic raid boss 300 times and you get loot once you drop it.

I would understand making your weekly vault require timed keys however - the same way a raid boss only counts if you kill it.

10

Yes, but that Mythic raid is a weekly lockout and you can only kill 8 bosses max.

11

The way this reads, though, is that your key will deplete if above a +12 down to a +12. 2-12, however, do not deplete and rank down if you fail the timer. This is what you are asking for, is it not? With this change if you failed your +10 you would still have a +10.

12

I know that’s how it seems to read at first but read it again closely. “Keystone from the weekly vault will not decay below level 12 with this achievement.”

This achievement is the 2850 rating (Almost all dungeons at +12 timed)
“Will not decay below level 12” - will not drop below a +12. (A failed 13 will turn into a 12 but a 12 will stay a 12 if failed.

I would think the wording would be: Keystones level 11 and lower will no longer deplete if they are not cleared within the timer.

Or similar to their wording: “Keystone’s below level 12 will not decay”

Adding the below level 12 after the word decay describes how low the key will go. At least the way it reads. If that is wrong - then their editor needs to shake their head.

Am I misunderstanding it? Possible - but the wording is awful.

13

Hell, maybe I am. I didn’t catch the word “achievement”… Ambiguous wording, for sure.

14

I’ve gone back and re-read the post and I believe I am correct in my understanding of it. All the bullet points follow the announcement of the achievement and relate to high lvl M+ dungeons:

  • New character-specific achievement: The War Within Keystone Legend: Season Two
    • Requirement: Attain a Mythic+ Rating of at least 2850 during The War Within Season Two.
    • Reward: Failing to clear a Mythic+ dungeon within the timer will no longer reduce the level of your Keystones below 12 for the season.
    • Keystone from the weekly vault will not decay below level 12 with this achievement.
    • Keystone can still be lowered below level 12 by speaking to Lindormi.

It all talks about keystones not going below a lvl 12.

15

Dang.

well, I am onboard with you: They need to just stop the depletion crap for anything 2-12 too without requiring an achievement to do so.

16

They did literally the opposite of what was asked.

Generally the feedback was to remove deplete, give a charge based key, or make keys not deplete under 12.

Instead what did they do? You need almost 3 k score so keys no longer go below 12 so basically this only has a positive impact on a very small percentage of the players. While the rest can eat s… This does absolutely f all to improve the situation for the vast majority of people, 2850 isn’t even low dude, like wtf??

Make it make sense, literally Idiotic.

At a certain point I have to believe they do this just to spite people. Oh you asked for this? Well f you! We’re gonna give you this garbage instead, that literally solves nothing.

The feedback was to solve an issue, not to trade a bigger problem for a solution that only affects 1% of people. The feedback was to make the deplete less of an issue for everyone, capish? Apparently not, even a simple concept such as this is apparently lost.

Also why do we have workshop again? We literally just has it a few seasons ago.

17

M+ could be exactly like delves; when you click the keystone in the dungeon you select the key level you want to run it at. Done.

2 Likes
18

Have to agree with you. The people most upset about the pug situation - people leaving keys and bricking them and depleting being a major issue were not the 1% who were in pre-formed organized groups pushing for max rating.

This feels similar to an economy being really bad, people asking the government for relief, so they ad a tax rebate for those who make more than 200K a year… literally helps no one.

Cheers!

19

No key should deplete, at all, be it a +3 or a +20.