Most people are not sitting there running a dozen m+ keys a day. The average +10 is going to take 25-30 minutes. Compare that to a heroic boss fight that might take 5 minutes to kill. An entire raid may take less than 2 hours once you have it on farm to kill ~10 bosses (depending on raid size). Compared to M+ you are looking at roughly twice the amount of time spent for the same number of chances at gear.
And as someone else said. Most of the bosses on heroic are easier than +10’s especially when you get bad affix weeks. Heck the first boss on mythic is free 415 gear. I’m not saying that is a bad thing I’m a fan of having an easy entrance boss.
Depleting a key, picking up the bwamsamdi buff, and collecting guaranteed 2-3 pieces from a chest is not a difficult task whatsoever. And I do notice you’re using the first boss as if that’s the baseline difficulty of raiding, and I can only imagine you will be using shrine/kr as a reason to say how much harder those are than raid bosses. Mekatorque/blockade/jaina are all harder than any +10 key under any affix combo. Even opulence/conclave are harder than those keys. Your argument boils down to: first couple bosses are easy, therefore keys are harder than raid bosses. An argument of bad faith if you ask me.
Except you fail to mention that depleting a key you are looking at 35-40+ minutes in a M+. A heroic boss may take ~5 minutes. Is it difficult to deplete a key then complete it with the buff? No it is not. It is extremely time consuming and not efficient. I fail to understand your point. If you have 40+ minutes to waste in multiple m+ runs then good for you. Most people don’t have the patience for that. You are comparing something that takes 40+ minutes now to something that takes ~5 minutes. Are most of the bosses in heroic that hard? No. Also oppulence is difficult? Since when did they buff him?
After 4-5 weeks most bosses in heroic are going to be 1 shots and take ~5 minutes.
Way to take what I said out of context. I said the first boss of mythic is a joke and free 415 loot.
It’s still more difficult than killing most heroic raid bosses. Many people who’ve never completed a +10 dungeon clear heroic raids. M+ is just more difficult and there is way less scope for people to be carried.
The raid’s only been out a month and PUGs are clearing the first 6 bosses easily. Mythic+ is simply more difficult content, it’s perfectly fair that the rewards are on par with heroic raiding.
Warfront 400 quest and weekly giving heroic gear should be deleted. They inflate people’s ilvls to the point where 10s are faceroll. 10s are hard if you are sub 400 ilvl.
Content that you can teleport into shouldn’t give heroic level gear
The warfront quest is about once a month for 400 gear. Warfront boss does drop heroic quality gear but good luck with that. I have gone multiple kills and bonus rolls and got nothing. The reward for heroic gear happens roughly every 2 months. The next event is not until March 26th. I don’t see a problem with the game giving out on average 1 to maybe 2 heroic quality items a month.
EDIT: Let’s reconsider, and check to see if you deserve mockery. Simming my current gear and talents, with my 400 raid shoulders, vs 415 Pistoleer’s Spaulders and the Shoulders of the Sanguine Monstrosity.
And what do I find? 1.1% dps loss on the Spaulders, and a whopping 2.9% loss on the Shoulders.
So, no, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Now that I think about it, it was common knowledge that going from a 4 ring raid piece to a lower level 5 ring piece was frequently an upgrade back when the patch launched.
You have no argument. You said it takes 2 hours for a full raid clear, you have ~20% to get a piece of loot per boss, 9 bosses. Your expected number of loot per run is 2. In those 2 hours, you run 4 keys, with a 40-60% chance of getting loot, your expected number of loot in that same time is 2.
Nevermind the fact that time has absolutely nothing to do with the actual difficulty of a boss/dungeon, but you’re wrong about time efficiency anyway.
Nothing was brought out of context. You clearly mentioned the first boss as an attempt to sell your point, which is misleading because the other 8 bosses are significantly harder. You want to discuss about the difficulty of raid bosses? How about for starters don’t bring up the first boss and then not mention anyone else. It’s disingenuous.
It’s more of like 10s are hard if you can’t play your class well enough, along with having/gaining knowledge on abilities bosses and enemies use in the dungeons themselves. You can have all the gear in the world from warfronts and the like but it won’t make you do better skill wise at the game.
Also all the learning of the dungeon mechanics are only done once per expac.
One they are memorized there is no real relearning to continually get great gear all expansion.
And what has been left out with the loot per time is how the first mythic+ if the week gives those 3 items for 5 people at the end AND guaranteed higher gear for all 5 people in the cache AND residium to buy 415 azerite in 3 weeks. 9.66 items for 5 people on that first run per week.
It more or less highlights that raids offer a difficulty from your worst players possibly deciding the success of your entire raid (Mekka for example).
I CC more, Interupt More, Use defensives more in a M+ than i do during every single heroic raid fight the difference is with 5 people i narrow down the chance that new recruit #6 will cause a wipe.
raids have almost always been about waiting for the worst members to figure out the fight or learn how to stay alive long enough to pass DPS/Healing checks.
Individually a M+10 asks you to do more than every single heroic fight in BoD.
Its the repeatability of M+ and the fact I dont have to use the crit/vers ring anymore i can go farm for the Best in slot piece for everysingle slot is why M+ is just so much more rewarding than raids.
If i could run heroic BoD a 100 times a week i wouldnt, because boss 1-3-4-5-7-9 dont drop anything i want meanwhile i can spam Shrine-Siege-Atal-Tol Dagor to get a crit/maserty piece in every slot, this is a prime reason why M+ is simply better
Wrong. You said before collecting the buff (which failure is required to get it) is not a difficult task. Also you make it sound as though people are not trading loot with each other. After week 2-3 a ton of gear in the raid is already being traded.
In order for you to get the buff you have to fail the key. By the time you fail the key you are looking at about a 40 minute + run. If you are failing keys at that rate you will not run 4 keys in 2 hours. At that rate and failing keys because apparently that is what makes m+ easy you will finish 2 to maybe 3 keys in 2 hours assuming for travel time and waiting on others. Also if you are failing 10 keys since you can only complete it with the buff the key is going down to a 9.
Nope I said the first boss is free 415 loot. Again you are taking it out of context. Also the other bosses on heroic are not significantly harder. That’s just like, your opinion, man.
You start the key naked, suicide spam to force the timer to 0. This takes maybe 5 minutes of dying over and over tiops. You then run outside, put your gear on, smash the dungeon.
Oh and bonus points: you can double lust every boss with the bwamsamdi buff. So hard yea?
So you want to blow ~300-400 gold on repairs every key? Also now your key is a 9. Now you have to spend another 30 minutes upgrading it back to a 10 because apparently the group your in is so bad they cant do a 10 without the buff. So congrats on explaining nothing.
edit* I see your typo. Fixed that for you. Naked. Either way you are downgraded to a 9 now.
You must’ve missed the part where you start the key naked. So no you’re not paying anything for repairs. You do this 5 times, one for each player’s keys. That equates to the time of clearing your so called 2 hour raid.
Then you start pugging someone else’s keys, because you know… you can.
Your key is still starting off as a 9 using your example for the week. You now spend ~30 minutes getting your group together to get one of your keys to a 10. This is a minimum. So now lets assume the other 4 people in your group are also bad with 9 keys since apparently they cant finish a 10 without the buff and ranked down. You are now spending about 30 minutes (again factor in travel and getting the group together) to level up 5x 9 keys. Unless each person decides to pug their 9 key to a 10 you are now at ~2 hours spent upgrading 5 keys to a 10. At the minimum you are spending ~25-30 minutes of your own time upgrading a key from a 9 to a 10.
Also purposely blowing up a 10 key results in 1 less drop rather than finishing it on time.
Good luck joining pugs as dps when all you have done is a bunch of blown up 10 keys and some 9 keys.
It doesn’t matter. I just gave you a strat that matched gearing speed with heroic raiding. I could not run a single key for the rest of the week and it wouldn’t matter, and one of these ways is so much easier than the other. And to note this, 2 hours is an extremely fast clear. I’m even being generous with your raid time.
So what happens is you deplete all these 10s, then you use your new ilv to join other pugs because people doing 10s often don’t even use raider io. Even better if you join an 11 so you get your 10 back next week.
You aint beating me in this argument, I have this down to a science. My m+ group outpaced my guild’s main mythic roster’s ilv when BoD came out. And we played the same hours.
Sorry but that is false. And as much as I don’t like how people use raider io all the time it is not true at all that people only look at ilvl for 10 keys. When you throw up a 10 key at this point you have a dozen ~400 ilvl dps queue within the first minute.
I’d say yes and no. Yes in that I can gear up without raiding. No, in that Blizzard removed other incentives to raid. For example, in MoP, you had to collect a whole bunch of drops from raid bosses to get the legendary cloak. I was doing LFR every week on two different characters, for nearly the entire expansion - all for the cloak. In the past few expansions, there hasn’t been anything uniquely available from raids - at least anything that I was interested in. To be clear, I consider that a good thing.
Nope. First couple weeks, ilv > score. Once you get the gear, you drop that strat entirely and instead 2 chest the +10s for faster drop loot drops.
You diverted the argument to time efficiency. Time efficiency has nothing to do with actual difficulty. People who divert arguments tend to do it because they lost the main argument. And now I proved to you that I can at least match the time efficiency of doing dungeons so you don’t even have that going. Just tossing out facts btw.