M+ makes non-Mythic raiding obsolete: Thoughts?

(To preface, I am not complaining and don’t think the system is bad, I’m just curious to hear other people’s thoughts on the current gearing system.)

I noticed, as my guild is beginning alt runs, that none of my alts need Normal BoD. Then I realized only the one that has been 120 for 3 days can even snag an upgrade from heroic, save warforge/titanforge stuff. What a strange thing, to have heroic raids be side-grades for alts who have never been into a raid.

If your main draw is gear, which for many (I daresay most) players it is, M+ makes pre-Mythic raiding obsolete, as far as I can tell. You have a endlessly farmable source of 400+ items and a guaranteed 410 coming each week. You get a big chunk of Titan Residuum unlocking Mythic-level Azerite pieces on a timed system. You have 1-2 shots at a 400 item every hour you run, and the odds of getting something from a run seems much higher than getting something from a comparable amount of time spent clearing a raid.

To me, the only draw for raiding now is to spend time with the people who raid but don’t do M+.

I’m curious how others feel about this system. Do you feel that pre-Mythic raiding is obsolete? Do you still do it even if you do M+? Do you not do M+ because you can heroic raid instead? Do you like the current system of alternate methods of acquiring heroic-raid comparable gear or better in 5-mans? Am I wrong and there’s something that keeps pre-Mythic raiding reliably relevant after 1-2 clears for gear-motivated players?

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I think you’ll find that for all but the most elite guilds, M+ makes mythic raiding obsolete as well. Not to mention rated PVP, etc.

We’re a casual PVP focused guild, but we do need competitive gear for world PVP. I’m starting to entice guldies into M+ just because once you memorize the mechanics, the gearing seems so much better for the difficulty than any other source except war fronts.

M+ is too easy to farm heroic ilv loot. Never understood how blizzard thinks a +10 is remotely the same/similar challenge as a heroic raid boss.

Also m+ accelerated what I think was a big problem with wow for years: that this game turned too loot-centric.

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The weekly cache at the very least needs to go and have azerite just drop in dungeons.

Disagree. It removed the loot centric gameplay. I was 398 on mythic week. Now that I’m 405, I can focus on having fun and not getting gear. If I get stonewalled, it’s a skill/party issue. That’s the way I like it. Dps checks aren’t very fun, imo.

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It might be better to keep the cache, adjusting ilvl appropriately, and remove the end of dungeon drops. That would at least get the rewards onto a weekly lockout like they are for raids, instead of giving people unlimited chances for forging to mythic ilvl.

I didn’t say loot centric gameplay, I said the game itself is. You’re saying loot impacting the ability to clear challenging content, I’m saying loot is one of the few reasons to even play the game anymore.

M+10 is harder than most heroic raid bosses.

I 100% disagree with this sentiment and actively avoid anyone who plays exclusively for loot. In my experience, these are players satisfied with being carried and not pulling their weight.

Don’t blame the players, blame the game. It’s not the player’s fault that the game is laughably empty otherwise.

Mythic + is one of the only real reasons I still play. For years the only way to endgame was with 20+ other players and honestly it got exhausting. Now I have a way to progress in 5man content. It keeps dungeons relevant. Imo mythic + is the best thing to happen to the game in ages.

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Maybe for overworld lobby players. There are multiple content difficulties I have yet to complete. And may never complete before it’s retired. Not dogging treasure hunters, just keeping my distance from them.

Eh, not really. Raid azerite pieces remain generally better than dungeon ones for most specs. Archive/Treacherous/Seductive FTW.

If they screw up the next raid’s azerite traits then you could be right.

You are almost much more likely to get a particular piece of gear from raid, since the per boss drop tables are much shorter than the ones for a M+ chest.

This is the real problem here. The raid doesn’t drop enough gear and with Personal loot half of what DOES drop gets scrapped/de’ed. Cleared 7 heroic bosses this week so far. Not one piece of gear. A total of 23 last week across 3 toons. One piece of gear. 21 the week before. 2 pieces of gear, both scrapped.

I know my toons are geared, but it doesn’t matter how geared i am if nothing freaking drops.

M+ doesn’t drop azerite. You get currency to buy it with. Takes 2-3 weeks to buy a 415 piece.

good that there is finally alternative challenging progression routes in PvE

The hyper focus on raid development at the expense of everything else since WoW’s launch has held back the development of other game systems for far too long, including dungeon progression which blizzard finally implemented after 12 years in Legion

There are plenty of affix + dungeon combinations that are way harder to tank/heal relative to normal/heroic raid content (such as tanking sanguine + necrotic this week), and thus they should drop comparable base ilvl gear (ignoring warforging/titanforging which is a whole other issue)

For people who want time flexible (30-60 minute sessions) content that is BOTH challenging and rewarding the M+ system is literally the only alternative. As an on/off heroic/mythic (old normal/heroic) raider who raided from wrath to WOD I dropped raiding as soon as the M+ system was introduced, and it is the only reason I have remained subbed consistently since the second month of Legion.

Everything in PvE outside of M+ and progression raiding is faceroll garbage so without M+ content blizzard doesn’t get my money (or WoW token conversion). It also does not help that for years now both tanking and healing are horrifically boring in raiding content relative to dungeon content.

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Speaking from the PoV of someone who is a non-Mythic raiding guild (We only went 5/8H last tier, we’re currently 7/9N 1/9H with N Blockade and H Grong brickwalling us), I disagree on a few points.

You have a endlessly farmable source of 400+ items and a guaranteed 410 coming each week.

This is where I presume you’re specifically discussing Mythic-level raiders. Non-Mythic level raiders either don’t have the skill to knock out +10s on the regular, or are surrounded by people that can’t. At least for my own guild, the overwhelming majority of our roster hasn’t cleared any dungeon above +6 this season so far.

You get a big chunk of Titan Residuum unlocking Mythic-level Azerite pieces on a timed system.

This much I agree with. You get minimal Residuum outside of the weekly chest, which is a pretty flawed system, IMO. Having some passively drop from other sources would be a good idea.

You have 1-2 shots at a 400 item every hour you run, and the odds of getting something from a run seems much higher than getting something from a comparable amount of time spent clearing a raid.

This presumes you’re doing farming high keys efficiently, which goes to my earlier point. A full clear of BDA will most likely net you somewhere in the ballpark of 2-4 items or so (before factoring in loot sharing), and having it on farm means it can be cleared in ~2-3 hours or so. In the same timeframe, doing M+ will net you probably 1-3 items, presuming keys are being run efficiently.

M+ may make pre-Mythic raiding near-obsolete for Mythic-level raiders, but lower difficulties still have their niche for players who can’t quite clear high keys on the regular.

If you want a random piece, which has a high chance of being garbage. As I understand it, most specs want at best 1 third of their potential dungeon 415 pieces. The 7k for a specific piece is more reflective of actual cost.

And the raid azerite pieces are still better, and a boss still has 3-5 items on it’s loot table compared to, what, 20 for the average M+ dungeon?

Really not true. It’s basically guaranteed to be an upgrade of anything available from heroic raiding just because of ilvl.

How many specs in game have a priority that is ilvl > stat x >…

Many would take a 10 ilvl hit to maintain a threshold. I know prot is ilvl > haste > vers = mastery > crit socket worth 10 ilvls for any non ring/trinket, but that’s rare. I had a 345 with a socket on my boomkin that was beating 370s in S1. Almost no one is just equipping whatever.