Simply put, the entire community isn't prepared for an expansion that was balanced with the MDI in mind. Should you be able to chain pull half an instance into a boss with no healer in your group? Maybe not - but the design philosophy that they've implemented makes every level of key at the very least annoying if not annoying and stressful.
There does not need to be anti-mass pull mechanics in every pack. Honestly, people enjoy mass pulling. Not because it makes a dungeon easier or faster, but it's simply fun. From an MDI perspective, at least as a spectator, it's fun to watch too. And the overwhelming majority of people will only ever be spectators to that.
Now don't misunderstand me, keys should reward you for having awareness and using a strategy, and even for bringing a well balanced comp. But by and large, the whole system just isn't fun any more. Low level keys are not tuned properly for the amount of mechanics there are. Maybe a more exponential ramp to the tyr/fort/base dmg modifiers is the answer so that MDI is more in line with Blizzard's philosophy of how the dungeons should be played, but casual and even semi hard core players don't want the state it's currently in.
I agree with how Blizzard wants keys to feel at the MDI/competitive level. In this expansion, that would start around the 12+ range. But low level keys should not feel so exhausting.
I think they are just worried M+ takes over raiding. If M+ are easy and rewards good loot, nobody will raid.
10/22/2018 03:51 AMPosted by KorylI think they are just worried M+ takes over raiding. If M+ are easy and rewards good loot, nobody will raid.
People will raid regardless of whether the M+ rewards are good. The draw of raiding is that raiding is fun, not that it rewards high item level gear. Gear is only useful in assisting raiders in progressing further in the raid.
Gear is a means to an end, not the end itself.
1 Like
I'd rather play a game designed for the player and not the spectator.
5 Likes
I'm glad they made tyrannical and fortified on +2 because no one understood what mechanics were in Legion. That was the best change they could've made to keys. I honestly wish they would've come up with more affixes and different combinations, cuz it feels like we're playing the same game again.
I kinda like the difficulty it's at. I think some affixes suck !@#, but the dungeons themselves are fine.
The difficulty changes with the key number. So you can choose how difficult the dungeon gets. I dont see how m+ is too hard if you can change the knob on the difficulty level to make it easier?
LOL
I generally don't have an issue getting 10s done on each of my 6 toons from week to week. But I also genuinely sympathize with the casual player that gets declined from group after group because people are so traumatized by the over tuned state of keys right now. There is no reason for dungeon mobs to have as many mechanics as they do compared to legion. Yes, the title says m+ is too hard and I'll admit it's a bit of a click bait because those aren't my exact thoughts. The crux of my argument is that the current state of keys makes them feel like a chore, and they aren't fun. If I want a challenge, I'm happy to push something on my 5/8m main. But it shouldn't feel like my 350 alt can't get into a group because that level of gear is expected in a 4.
1 Like
I disagree. In my opinion, any move away from the mindless AoE zerg is a good one. If you want to blitz through and overpower the dungeon, you still can. Just run a lower key. Mythic 10+ awards heroic raid level gear and should be commensurately difficult.
That said, I can agree that Blizzard may have gone a little overboard giving every individual trash mob 2-3 mechanics we have to keep track of.
That said, I can agree that Blizzard may have gone a little overboard giving every individual trash mob 2-3 mechanics we have to keep track of.
10/22/2018 08:49 AMPosted by ToccataI disagree. In my opinion, any move away from the mindless AoE zerg is a good one. If you want to blitz through and overpower the dungeon, you still can. Just run a lower key.
You really can't though, that was kind of the OP's point.
In legion you definitely could because fortified didn't start until keystone level 10. Now it starts at level 2.
I am pretty happy with Tyrannical at lower levels because boss fights are fun. But waves of trash that hit like trucks and need to be stunned/interrupted aren't really that fun.
The other problem with fortified is that it massively favours groups that can skip packs and I don't think that's particularly helpful for class balance.
I would actually prefer to see fortified removed entirely and just make every week Tyrannical week.
2 Likes
Pros are getting 19's done. I dont think theyre hard enough.
10/22/2018 03:51 AMPosted by KorylI think they are just worried M+ takes over raiding. If M+ are easy and rewards good loot, nobody will raid.
I would, I raid because I like the content. 20 people vs 5. Few times a week is great. Raiding shouldn't be about gear, the game shouldnt be about gear. Make it about content.
1 Like
Mythic+ is a dial in which you can turn and increase difficulty.
Too hard? Turn down the dial. Pretty simple. If you can't do +6, start back at 3 or 4. Don't get good gear that way? Sucks. Life isn't fair.
Get over it.
Too hard? Turn down the dial. Pretty simple. If you can't do +6, start back at 3 or 4. Don't get good gear that way? Sucks. Life isn't fair.
Get over it.
1 Like
At this the moment, the 4 recently bumped posts are all about the same thing - M+ being overturned. It's honestly not that I can't do high keys, I'm perfectly capable. My legion io on my main was 4.2k without any real concerted effort (not this toon, my warlock Vynnessa on stormreaver, or currently Vynniv on Zul'jin). I got there because keys were simply fun to do and I did them. There are a chorus of respectable and experienced players (myself NOT included) expressing discontent with the system, independent of effort/reward.
2 Likes
M+ is fine as it is.
There are lower difficulty dungeons for those who like easier stuff.
There are lower difficulty dungeons for those who like easier stuff.
It's not really so much the general difficulty so much as how severely you are punished for minor mistakes. The timers are much tighter than they were in legion because of Fortified/Tyrannical, so much so that a single wipe means you probably aren't going to make the timer. Trash abilities are way more dangerous too.
A single facepull - your key is gone.
Missing an interrupt on certain trash mobs - your key is gone.
Someone instantly released instead of waiting for a res and now has to run back from the start of the dungeon - your key is gone.
Someone get DCed for a minute or 2 - your key is gone.
I've been in randoms very often where 1 of the above things turned a timed key into a failed key. It's not that content is too hard, it's that the timers are so tight that any mistake costs you your key.
This is almost entirely the result of adding fortified/tyrannical to sub 10 keys. They did this, seemingly without changing the average time allowance at all - the timers are still all in the 30-40 minute range despite them needing a lot more DPS to complete in time than legion dungeons did. You need about 30% more DPS than you did in legion to make the same times, without even considering the mobs being more dangerous.
For comparison that basically means if you +1'd a +9 or lower dungeon in BFA, you would have +3'd that same dungeon without Fortified or Tyrannical. It makes a huge difference.
A single facepull - your key is gone.
Missing an interrupt on certain trash mobs - your key is gone.
Someone instantly released instead of waiting for a res and now has to run back from the start of the dungeon - your key is gone.
Someone get DCed for a minute or 2 - your key is gone.
I've been in randoms very often where 1 of the above things turned a timed key into a failed key. It's not that content is too hard, it's that the timers are so tight that any mistake costs you your key.
This is almost entirely the result of adding fortified/tyrannical to sub 10 keys. They did this, seemingly without changing the average time allowance at all - the timers are still all in the 30-40 minute range despite them needing a lot more DPS to complete in time than legion dungeons did. You need about 30% more DPS than you did in legion to make the same times, without even considering the mobs being more dangerous.
For comparison that basically means if you +1'd a +9 or lower dungeon in BFA, you would have +3'd that same dungeon without Fortified or Tyrannical. It makes a huge difference.
1 Like
I can't even remember the last time I completed a decently high level M+ dungeon let alone one on time. It's no longer even remotely fun to do them. First of all it takes half an hour to an hour to get a single invite, and when you do, the group can't complete the instance. I can't even !@#$ing stomach completing one a week for the weekly cache at this stage, that's how bad it is. I can do a lower one for a cache but me outgearing the reward defeats the purpose of it.
3 Likes
I guess I might be the minority, but I like the fact that the dungeons are difficult for a change. There is only so much entertainment that comes from chain pulling and AOE'ing everything down.
Also its simply not true that one wipe will cause a missed timer. I have had plenty of runs where people have died, even had the whole group wipe twice on a recent AD 9, which I'll admit is one of the easier instances and we still made the timer by more than 2 mins. If your timers are running that tight then it most likely means that the DPS is not strong enough or too much down time between pulls, skips not being utlilized, etc.
Also its simply not true that one wipe will cause a missed timer. I have had plenty of runs where people have died, even had the whole group wipe twice on a recent AD 9, which I'll admit is one of the easier instances and we still made the timer by more than 2 mins. If your timers are running that tight then it most likely means that the DPS is not strong enough or too much down time between pulls, skips not being utlilized, etc.
10/22/2018 05:19 PMPosted by FierytaintI guess I might be the minority, but I like the fact that the dungeons are difficult for a change.
They're only more difficult at lower levels though, that's the issue.
Nothing has changed at 10 or above. They always had fortified/tyrannical.
They made the lowest levels of M+ more difficult for the people least able to deal with it, and it's an absolute !@#$ show at the lower levels.
The only thing that changed for people doing 10s or higher is infested so it's no real surprise they think everything's fine.