It is, where do you think the players from the tournaments come of, the moon? They came from mythic plus. I mean troll away buddy.
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and competitive eaters come from people who once ate food normally. therefore food was designed for esports.
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This is so often overlooked as relevant. I mostly run with the same folks, particularly in our higher keys, but we do pug-in dps when we’re just filling vault or messing around on alts. For my part, io score alone tells me that person has been present in dungeon(s) at level, and that’s about where my assumptions end with regard to their score alone. I like to see that they’ve timed a decent number of keys above 15 (or 20, if that’s the range we’re doing). Even then, we usually just grab the first person to queue lol.
Interestingly, a buddy I run with regularly puts a ton of stock into whether or not the pug-player has everything enchanted/gemmed and is using consumables. He feels that demonstrates that the player cares about their contribution enough to make sure they’re bringing their A-game.
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What’s a little funny is the scoring was developed by players (raider.io) not Blizzard.
After 2.5 expansions of mythic+ and community scoring Blizzard finally put it in the base game.
Also classic has a fairly large “esports” gameplay of using max consumables/world buffs and trying to clear the raids as fast as possible.
World first racing was completely 3rd party driven for the first 14 years of WoW’s existence, and finally acknowledged by Blizzard in BFA.
People like to compete.
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oh that’s interesting – didn’t know that was a thing! it’s odd to find out after all these years that vanilla wow was designed as an esport, but here we are. i’m always learning for sure.
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Your argument that “people use it competitively, therefore, it MUST have been designed that way” stinks of a logical fallacy, but…I cannot remember which one it is.
Either way, it’s not a compelling argument, as Pyri pointed out with the hot dog eating competition example.
Consider your average casual raiding guild that does Normal and then Heroic; they’re just having fun playing together. Where is the competition here?
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So you’re saying Mythic Plus is not a competitive mode, even tho it has a score, it has a ladder, it has an esport, it has seasons, its not a competitive environment. You’re not under a timer or anything to complete it as fast as possible.
It’s just cheese, the moon is comprised of cheese, because players say so. Right?
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Before IO scores, Wrath had GearScore by which other players’ “skill” was measured.
Blizzard even took a light-hearted jab at it during April Fool’s one year. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Equipment_Potency_EquivalencE_Number 
Ironically mythic+ didn’t initially launch with titles or anything, players campaigned for it for 2 expansions to add rewards for high keys being ran.
Score was completely player driven until SL season 2.
“Seasons” is like raid tiers, bumped item levels to continue progressing.
It always did have the MDI, which is speed running low keys (low relative to the level they contestants can do) so that is true.
We’re getting somewhere here atleast.
Yes, that is what we are saying.
For example, I like to run, for recreation, for fun, for exercise and to stay healthy. I use the Strava app to track performance, and every time, it tells me who else is running that same route and how they are doing. Honestly, though, I don’t care, because I’m not running to compete with others. I just enjoy having a reason to go outside, enjoy the nice weather, and lose weight / stay in shape. Are you going to argue that God gave me two legs so that I could win a gold medal at the Olympics?
You can extend this to riding a bike or driving a car. Were those also created for competition because Tour de France and Formula 1 exist?
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Yeah we have that in league, they’re called bronze players, casuals who just play for fun.
You’re over-complicating it, just because YOU play it not to compete with others does not mean the system itself isn’t tailored towards competition, is what I am saying. Its like you being a runner but everytime you run you’re being timed by a system, failure to complete those runs in a certain place would bar you from certain clubs of people who compete at higher level.
Every so often, people are recruited into a team that competes on how fast can they run while being timed in the same places. Its a spectated event, and real life money can be earned by competitors, sort of like Worlds, or DOTAs championships, CSGO, MDI…
all i said was that those things do not prove it was designed as an esport
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A lot of people dont seem to realize that most competitive games weren’t even designed to be esports to begin with. Players themselves turned them into this. Games like Street Fighter, League of Legends, DotA, and even CS:GO all started out as just being competitive games. The players then made structured tournaments that caught on and were further expanded on by companies.
M+ was designed to just be a competitive mode that people could do to acquire gear and feel a form of progression outside of the usual treadmill of just raidlogging. It was also put in place for those that had the time to run dungeons, but not the time to invest two to three hours a night to progress in raid. People then started the competition in it by posting logs, best times, etc and finally Blizzard saw the dollar signs in televising it as an event which takes us to where we are now with the race.
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All they have to do is look at the interviews of when MDI was created, why they chose Mythic Plus and the answer is there. Its almost as if they planned it… I thought the timer would give it away but, sips tea it is what it is.
Yes, and people were unhappy with WoD following MoP. MoP was by far the most content rich of the expansions before Legion.
If you look at everything before MoP, you will see a lot of similarities with WoD. What exactly was there to do in Classic, TBC, Wrath, and Cata for meaningful progression besides raiding? It was the same thing as WoD. A week of dungeons to get raid geared, and then you could raid or grind reps.
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No, I think that’s what you are doing and then projecting that onto us.
“Tailored towards” and “can be used for” are not the same thing.
I agree with this, except for the part where you say it was a competitive mode. A “challenge” mode is probably a better term, as it was basically grew out of CMs in MoP / WoD.
For it to be competitive, you’d have to be competing with / against someone else. Usain Bolt is not getting a gold medal in the 100m for beating his own time during qualifications; he’s getting it because he beat everyone else on the field.
If I’m going for a run through the city streets, as I almost always do, and someone happens to run past me, I don’t start cursing the city for making sidewalks competitive.
So many problems in this thread.
“The problem is M+ is easier gearing”
- In order to get Heroic raid drops from end of M+ dungeons you have to run a +17 this season and a +18 next season.
- Actual Mythic raid drops are limited to 1 per week from Vault if you run a +18 (prob 19 next season?)
This is obviously personal opinion, but as someone running 20-23’s on a large amount of toons and who plays with an AOTC guild of players at varying skill levels, there is zero chance that any of the first 7 bosses in Aberrus H are harder than a +18. Zero chance. Most of those first 7 bosses range in difficulty of a +12 to a +15.
Conversely:
- Raid has the legendary
- Raid has the best trinkets by miles
- Raid had by far the most time efficient access to gear, vault slots AND upgrade tokens prior to the mega-dungeon (and stays relevant because of the over-importance of wyrm crests)
If you want to be time efficient and have access to the best gear, you raid and do the mega. If you have more time available after that, it’s best spent running +17-18’s.
“The problem is M+ has infinite drops.”
Fair. Raid lockouts are outdated.
The problem with completely removing the limits here is that right now clearing heroic is the loot equivalent of running 9x +17 dungeons in 2 hours in terms of crests, 10x +17 dungeons in terms of vault and 3x +17 dungeons in terms of raw item drops. It’s just way too time efficient to be uncapped.
Removing the lockout completely would require a massive buff to crests and vault unlocks for dungeons OR currency and vault unlocks for raid would have to be nerfed into the ground. Bigger than that though, we’d probably have to re-think how we approach BiS trinkets and similar raid-special items, since obviously farming the same boss 10x a day would have some implications.
“Give us a separate gearing. Raid gear works in raid, M+ gear works in M+”
If you want to talk about killing the game, this is how you do it. No one plays rated PvP anymore because of the gear barrier making it simultaneously inaccessible and unrewarding.
If a gear barrier comes up between Raid and M+, then the other immediately becomes inaccessible and unrewarding to the other, and one of those modes will die. Hint: it will be the one that requires ~20 people to coordinate their calendar.
M+ is bad for the game because elitism or timers or culture or whatever
M+ didn’t make this community toxic. Step inside classic WoW for 1 day, and you will find them 10x worse than the worst emo raging key leaver you ever met because you didn’t over optimize some nonsensical piece of your character. It’s the WoW community that is the problem, not M+ or Raid or Retail or Classic specifically.
M+ keeps this game alive between patches.
M+ keeps AOTC guilds from crumbling to dust, because it provides a way for more serious players to do harder content without leaving for a mythic guild.
M+ puts a brighter spotlight on bad performing players because it’s harder to hide your faults in a team of 5.
Access to a second gearing track allows people who do both to progress a bit faster at the beginning of the season, which means many guilds are getting carried to AOTC by M+'rs that never would have achieved AOTC otherwise.
Personally, I think the anti-M+ group on the forum falls into 3 camps.
- Poor performing players who hate being asked to do 1 key a week for vault, because either the small group puts the spotlight on their performance or they personally have a harder time getting a key group than a raid group
- Serious raiders who are actually burdened with a 10 key/week request from their RL
- Average joes who want to run dungeons but hate the timer because it offers no mercy for kids, pets, doordash, jokes, coffee, snacks, etc.
And personally, I don’t care for the first two groups because those are self inflicted problems. If you don’t like what your raid requires raid with someone else.
The last one though, I think really cuts to the soul of the game.
There should be rewarding small group content that is more accessible to average joe.
Personally, I would love to see a Mythic+ type track without affixes and without a timer that rewards gear ~3 levels lower than an equivalent key.
Yes, you can sort of do this with a “completion” group but the result is always that the players are punished by depleting the key and lets be honest: most of the affixes make the experience less fun, and even if we ignore the timer and the death counter it will still make Susan the BM hunter feel bad that “she made the group fail” a key they never intended to time.
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Yep those 12 million players back in wrath were all raid logging. The game was completely dead outside raid…
Cata literally redid the entire world and added tons of content.
Wrath had fun little open world things like argent crusade etc…
Tbc had netherwing drake rep and a bunch of cool things to do in netherstorm
Vanilla had an entire world to explore and most of the open world stayed relevant.
On top of all of this the gear jump between the tiers back then were no where near as huge as they are now.
Just because YOU want to raid log doesn’t mean the rest of the planet did. Not every single person who plays this game has a goal to achieve perfect BiS.
I AM allowed to enjoy classic. Stop trying to dictate on what is enjoyable content for me.
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Wrath started the 13 item level jumps between difficulties, and even the +7 from the last boss.
It’s active right now. ICC is 256/264/277 with heroic LK 25 dropping 284.
If a handful of tournament or nether wing dailies is enough content to make it not a raid log based game, then man the expansions since Legion have been extremely non-raid log.
The base vanilla game (I really love classic era) has since a long leveling component I’d agree it isn’t just a “raid log” game, but once you do reach end game and if you want further progression it does result in raiding and consumable farming. Not saying it’s good or bad it’s what the game is.