M+ is killing WoW

And that’s what makes MMO’s great. I love there are a huge amount of activities to do for players even the things I don’t personally care for. Just because I have completed maybe 10 pet battles in history doesn’t mean I think they should be removed for those who do.

Too many people seem content to identity an issue in their preferred game mode, trace an aspect of the problem to a different game mode, and then demand the other game mode be diminished if not totally removed rather than suggesting a way to make their game mode better.

All is like is for raid gearing to be ‘bumped up’ a bit due to the weekly lockouts. And I’m not referring to iLev. Raiding is what I enjoy and, well I’m always the lowest geared in the guild because I don’t spam M+ like they do. I get maybe 1 or 2 a week due to time constraints.

But I’d never ask for something to be removed. Especially if it’s enjoyed by many.

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You’re still missing the big picture here. The M+ reward structure is too lucrative, which basically forces people to have to grind it.

This is the main issue for a ton of players. M+ needs to either have its own gear, like PVP or it needs to be extremely curtailed for loot drops.

I would still like to point out how ridiculous it is having 5 man dungeons be a path to some of the best gear in the game. This completely goes against what WoW was founded on, being WoW was a raid focused game.

Blizzard should have focused on improving raiding, tailoring it for the modern audience instead of turning their 5 man content into a bloody esport.

M+ is very anti-rpg and has no business being in an MMORPG. No other MMO has content like this, because their developers aren’t stupid.

M+ was created for one purpose only, to pad time played metrics, just like the borrowed power systems.

You are just simply not reading my posts if you think this. I have said M+ is too lucrative at the high end in a solid half of my posts. The rewards for M+ should go higher up the difficulty scale than they do today.

But let’s get two things straight about big picture. You and several others continue to push this idea that you have to farm M+ in order to raid. This pressure is coming solely from other raiders. There has never been a tier where you needed any M+ gear to obtain CE. That may not be acceptable for the goal you and your raid team set because other raiders will farm that gear to get ahead, but that is absolutely the fault of raiders and their expectations.

Second, M+ is a very popular game mode on its own. And it was popular going back to before it was as lucrative as is it today gear wise. There is a lot more to the story than just how much gear it provides to its popularity. So when nearly every suggestion that you make is centered on worsening M+ rather than improving raid (or any other mode) you really lose the ability to try to claim a big picture view.

But also not a problem for a ton of other players. Your entire argument relies on valuing the experience of one group of players over another. Having an iron curtain on gear might be the best solution, but pretty much everything else would hurt M+ just to keep other modes the same.

That’s your opinion and I disagree. When those 5 man dungeons can scale to harder levels of difficulty than raid, players should be rewarded accordingly.

Indeed, and sometimes games have to evolve to stay relevant with current players. Whether WoW should still be raid or die is something we can agree to disagree with, but we can’t ignore that the largest known subscriber loss in an expansion came before M+ even existed. We also know that a lot of players would not raid even if M+ wasn’t a thing.

Nothing forces players from playing M+ like an esport. Pick a key level that matches your group’s level and run. You can keep depleting keys until you eventually reach a level where you’re able to time even without pushing yourselves harder than you want.

Nothing stops Blizzard from improving raid further either before or after M+. This is the crux of my point. If a large percentage of players found raid as fun as you do, there wouldn’t be so many players in M+ that aren’t raiding. Rather than continuing to tear down M+, perhaps you could suggest improvements that would make raid feel better to play for those who might prefer raid but are instead in M+ for reasons unrelated to the fights themselves.

That’s your opinion. Insulting the devs is 100% not the way to get any of the changes you want to see.

You really need to start providing proof of these claims.

But even if you’re right that this was the reason it was created, that doesn’t mean the consequences are all bad. There are a lot of players who play M+ that would not be raiding regardless; all of those players would have no endgame PvE progression. You’ll never convince me that would be better for the game.

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I’m stocked up on popcorn for when WoW hits Xbox and gamepass. I can’t wait for the 1% to start complaining about console noobs in M+.

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mythic plus is the only reason i bother playing wow. If anything, they need to make more dungeons mythic pluss-able

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I think M+ has its place but it is IMO one of the reasons Blizzard has not created any form of innnovative dungeon content since.

M+ has an audience thus it should exist but I also think it drives a portion of the community away from dungeons because of the culture that has evolved from M+ playstyles.

Entire games are based around dungeon crawling and it seems to me Blizzard is missing out on a lot of players because M+ is the only meaningful style of dungeon progression.

I personally love a challenge but I don’t like redundancy… Clearing a Raid a few times while its still difficult is fun, speed running the same five dungeons hundreds of times is not my cup of shine.

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But… they are going to ignore it. That is the whole point of this thread. We are pretending raid or die did not fail.

This is why they hate it. Raid or die “forced” more people to play in their sandbox. Now there is alternate pve progression and they don’t want that.

This doesnt seem to be a two party disagreement (Raid vs. M+) it seems more like an out cry for a move to innovation and expansion of dungeons. I think once the Tribalsim is removed the concept is something everyone would support as long as their favored content is not removed outright without acceptance of a superior replacement.

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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. M+ needs to be removed from the game entirely

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I’m really not reading them.

your right. add some overly inflated end game max ilvl gears to torghast and torghast would of by far the most popular #1 feature ever added to this game by 1 million miles.

people only like m+ because it can be formed with only 5 players. max ilvl loot runs can be cleared in a fast as 15-30mins. there is no lockout on the dungeons. there is no lockout on the loot. there is literally 0 drawbacks at all from m+. add a lockout to the dungeons or the the loot and see how fast it dies.

dont fool yourself. m+ is not popular because of its design, or io, or timers, it is only popular because it is the easiest, fastest means to get the highest ilvl gear in game and for more classes than not bis items as well.

i did consider that. and i agree m+ was a massive reason for legions success. only because it was new and handed out end game loot without ever stepping foot into a raid. now here we are 3 xpacs later and the game is dead. why? i would suspect based off of my nearly 30 friends that quit already and my current reasoning for hating the game, would be because of M+ and the burn out it causes and the irrelevant appeal it brings to raiding and raid gearing.

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Blizzard could have added challenge to dungeons without turning them into timed, AOE spam trash mazes.

Lord of the Rings Online has 5 tiers of dungeons, but they’re not timed runs. ESO DLC dungeons are a lot tougher than the base dungeons, but doesn’t use a timer to create difficulty.

M+ ruined dungeon crawling in WoW. People love to tout how popular it is, but popular with which audience? I think the amount of actual MMO players that like a system like this is rather small.

M+ and the focus on making raiding harder drove out a ton of players from the game, especially older gamers that don’t have the twitch reflexes that younger players have.

It is just crazy to me a 20 year old MMO is trying to cater to competitive Twitch gamers, makes zero sense to me. WoW should have stuck to its EQ roots, and stayed a more old school MMO experience. Its clear that the modern game isn’t attracting new players with these changes. So, what was the point of them?

Crazy that Classic is still blowing up on Twitch and retail viewership has been in the gutter now for some time.

This concept is completely lost on these M+ defenders.

M+ wasn’t the reason Legion was popular. It was the theme, the class order halls, and the crap load of content they pumped out for that expansion that made it popular.

M+ is not keeping WoW a float, content keeps this game going, and M+ is holding back the devs from getting off their butts to make new systems, because players have just settled to spam 8 dungeons for years for their $15 sub fee.

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To be fair retail viewership was already in the gutter before classic.

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It’s a shame they don’t do more Mega dungeons that are more immersive/adventure-ey, along side and separate of m+. ( like upper/lower blackrock spire, or Kara Legion rework type dungeons )

So you have mega dungeons that are very much like Dawn that don’t get turned into m+ at all, but still have relevant gear drops and difficulties for that season. ( kinda like how Dawn is tuned around 16/17 area ) AND you have a normal m+ rotation for rankings/competition.

It would be fun if they could pull off maybe 1-2 mega dungeons per season along side the normal m+ rotation. Maybe slightly overtune the mega dungeons at first so people have to CC…etc, kinda like how ZG/ZA were overturned when they were originally turned into dungeons in Cata. Maybe add some fun set items like court of stars and arcway had.

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you mean that’s when they were implemented. if you think they were only worked on on those 2 dates, you got another thing coming.

The troll dungeons in Cata were a blast. This is the type of content we need in the game, not timed AOE trash mazes.

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I’d argue dungeon design has vastly improved and gotten more creative since mythic+ has been a thing.

Mega dungeons have only existed in expansions from the mythic+ era.

Dungeons have gotten much more elaborate (Tazzavesh and Dawn of the Infinite anyone?) since mythic+.

And it’s extremely obvious as Blizzard revamps old dungeons how plain they used to be.

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Threads like this really make me wish they would bring back the downvote button. Lemme thumbs down all these posters asking for the removal of M+ just because they don’t like doing it.

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You keep making these claims that you can’t possibly prove. There are a lot of reasons why M+ is popular, and each person can value different things. To try to pretend like you can pinpoint all the reasons why M+ has succeeded does nothing but hurt its credibility.

Add a maximum boss pull count to raid before you have to go back to the previous raid level for a chance at getting to try the boss you were originally trying and see how fast it dies. I can do it too…

There are certainly things that can be done to make M+ less enjoyable and even “die” as you put it. But given how many players continue to push their score beyond where gear matters and well below title proves that gear isn’t the only thing keeping M+ going.

But unlike with M+, raid is seemingly dying with no functional changes to the mode itself. Consider that for a moment. In order to kill M+ you have to significantly worsen the reward structure, but all it took to kill raid was introduce a more flexible game mode without any raid changes. Are you actually wanting to improve your raid experience or just tear down M+?

Seriously, stop claiming things you can’t possibly know. You don’t know the full reason M+ was popular in raid.

Is the game dead? I know I’m having few problems getting into keys.

To repeat myself here, I don’t dispute that many raiders have burned out on the game since M+ was released. I genuinely wish that weren’t the case.

But there are also a lot of players who only log in because they can M+. Those players wouldn’t be raiding if M+ weren’t in the game. Removing M+ would be removing those players from the game. As much as it sucks for you to lose those friends in game, they aren’t more important than the players who would have left or possibly never come to the game were it not for M+.

This is especially true since M+ did nothing to force raiders to change how they gear. You’re asking me to give up my favorite game mode because raiders feel pressure from other raiders to farm M+. That’s a ridiculous ask, I pay the same sub as you. I’d fully support ideas to improve raid, but the only thing you want to consider besides possibly separating gear is to kill M+. All based on claims you can’t prove and deeming your preferred way of playing to be more important than other players’ way of playing.

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