I don’t understand how ilvl is any less subjective by this definition?
There’s no enforced standard for what ilvl is good for what key. Blizzard doesn’t even publish recommended ilvls outside of queueable content. There’s as much subjectivity in a group leader deciding what ilvl is good enough for them as there is in the same group leader deciding on an io score.
…there isn’t a chart like that for ilvl either. And if there was half the group leaders would ignore it anyway.
A chart would objectively show what the bar is set for. Not some random guy making it up as he does. So is there one or no?
They did put in achievements. And now I have AOTC for Jaina I can finally get in premade LFR runs
No, there isn’t one. Not for ilvl or io score.
Systems*
There is Raider IO for your M+ score.
Than a plethora of other addons that show everything else, like even the basic of basics, your iLVL being shown on your tool tip or inspect window, basic, simple things that should already be there in built into the game.
Aside from semantics surrounding what your score may or may not look like, why do we have to have a plethora of addons to show the information that is available in our armoury?
The system that is being maintained is taking information through the Blizzard API from Blizzards own M+ leader boards, the so called maintenance is done by Blizzard automatically based on what runs you have completed. All Raider done was place a scoring system against this, a 5 minute reverse maths job and you can figure out how the scoring system works.
It is simple, all Blizzard need to do is the maths on how they want scores to show, than throw in all information already on the Armoury, like what raids have been completed, possibly also what role you done them in, show your whole group that is listed on group finder and there you have it, an in built ‘scoring’ system so you can see everything about the people you are playing with without having to head to the Armoury page.
While I agree that an internal system is required, the initial proposed design does not (not my novice eyes) appear to provide anything different to the current raider io functionality.
What I think would be a huge boon on an internal system would be if it not only provided current character functionality, but also had a “player” io score.
Obviously the individual character would be able to seen with current ilvl and completed keys, however if it also tracked your highest completed runs as a player (over all characters) and gave you a score it would be amazing.
That way you wouldn’t have to “grind” score with each character you intended to do M+ with.
I still think any system that seeks to assign a value to a player will be flawed, as a lot more things are important in a key than actually completing it. People can carry keys and their are others who are carried (with or without gold). Ultimately I would like to see something that ranked score based on actual contribution to the dungeons, however I know that this would be a fantasy and not realistic to achieve.
In a game where ilvl is the product of such RNG (and what of those poor folks sacking ilvl for sockets) ilvl requirements would be objectively worse.
Yes, it is subjective to players as to what io score they require, however at least that io score is based off solid figures. A 390 player could be a normal raider progressing into Heroic, a M+7 and higher player, or a warfront and WQ aficionado.
It grants no context in to what content the player has completed or is capable of completing.
Why though? Who cares if I can see what keys and raids you have done, or what your iLVL is. By hiding your Armoury, any in system, in game or external that relies on this information would be completely useless to you and therefore when you try to join a random person group they would have zero information on you and you would get nowhere.
But based on your Armoury I know you don’t care for M+ or raids, so since you will never be asking to join someones group, why is it so important to have this all hidden for?
But if you wanted to join my group you would not know the iLVL of anyone but me, I could be forming a Mythic Razzle Dazzle raid, would you join if you knew everyone in my group is 380 iLVL? You would not be able to see this information currently until you can either work the maths on their health, or get next to them and inspect them, by than you would most likely be in the instance and it would be too late.
That has happened to me in the past, and will most likely happen again and is probably currently happening to other players, join a raid of a group titled something like
“Guaranteed boss kill” and end up having nothing but a headache and giant repair bill.
You can’t. The reason players made the addons to begin with was to exclude others. By making an all inclusive system you would have to assume all players of a certain iLVL have the same skill, which they do not.
Scoring systems are used to show who is better and therefore who you do not want to take with you. For example my DK score is 800 or so, would I take a 200 scored healer with 380 iLVL into an M10 on Fort, Teeming and explosive week? Of course not. But if there score was close to mine, even with the lower iLVL? Still no since one metric doesn’t meet what I want.
Aside from a live update on all information that is currently on your Armoury page being shown in game instead to make it easier for players to see what they want.
Currently if you want to know someones iLVL, let’s say you see a tank running around with 390K health, how would you go about knowing their iLVL? Addons in game to show you instantly what it is, inspecting them and estimating it, or heading to the website. What if you could see this information live?
Sometimes even the addons that we use don’t work, my Exorsus Raid Tools constantly show a couple of people at under 250 iLVL, and the same for Raider that does not show any score that is not currently in the top 500 on the site, what point even is an addon if it does not even work?
Most people use the armory to troll others or make up reasons to exclude them.
You need to look at it on a positive sense instead of a negative one. People want to look at someones stats to know what type of player they are before joining with them to give themselves the best chance of completing said content.
Would you want to join with some random who got lucky with WQ items and is sitting at 390 iLVL, but is yet to complete a key or any tier of raiding in current or previous expacs?
We did before the armory existed with little problems.
I can see it’s uses but it’s still used most often to troll. I see people doing on here daily.
Do you remember Ming?
Out of curiosity, what is your personal experience and what do you feel would qualify as content appropriate for gear and skill?
For example, to everyone who has no idea who you are why would we take you?
For all intents and purposes outwardly you are a 381 ilvl Demon Hunter who has never completed anything higher than a M+2 on any of your characters and only participates in LFR.
How do WE know that you have the skill to do a +7 or higher? And given your current visible experience, how do YOU know that you have the skill capable of dealing with it while having never experienced it before?
Are we to assume that every person not only has multiple alts, but multiple accounts which obscure their progress?
I have no idea who Ming is, but if he is anything like what I am thinking I would have him on my ignore list and leave it at that, which is the point of what I am trying to get at, I want to know what groups I am getting into before doing them.
By not having any information on a player will only end up being like it was in the old days, players will be rejected for everything and be on a virtual server blacklist, than they will never get a chance to get better and your playing group will only get smaller.
The only way to know anything about someone is to either play with them or look at what content they have completed and their iLVL, the same way you did.
It seems to me though that those opposed to any implementation of any additional scoring systems, or even the current ones, are players who have not completed much content, now why is that?
Ming was a famous or infamous (depending on who you ask from the time) PVP rogue who wouldn’t even talk to you unless he saw in your armory that your arena rating was like 2000 or 2200. People tried to rationalize why this was ok while others called it asinine.
Nobody decides whether to talk to you based on your io score, just whether to take you into a dungeon with them…
Oh I agree, like I said we do need an integrated function. I don’t believe players should feel required to use external tools to play the game, something I’ve mentioned multiple times on how the game doesn’t “teach” you how to play, yet people spout the same “Just use GTFO” like the game directs new players to download it.
I was more just discussing what other potentials could having an integrated system provide, which most importantly I believe is managing account wide information that raider io fails to currently do.
For ilvl? The in game group finder tells you the average ilvl of applying players.
That said, since the information is available I don’t see why it isn’t in game when you inspect a player. Like in the top middle of the character screen below their name.
If you want to know you can still just armoury it and find out anyway, they just make the same information available just through more tedious means.
This was about armory and should it be toggled for hiding.
Yes but what about when you want to join someone else’s group? You don’t know what iLVL the rest of the playing group’s details are, you don’t even know their names until you are accepted into the group.
I want a way to see everything I am getting myself into to give myself the best chance to find a group that knows what they are doing. Think about when a 400+ player with a 1200+ raider score is asking for 390+ players for an M8. They could have a guildie or friend who is only 380 iLVL and 250 raider score in their group, you don’t know this until you get into the group.
Yep, I have to agree.
While there are a few people out there who dislike scoring systems while also playing the game for sure, in the main I think people either accept it or are indifferent while doing the content, or don’t use it, don’t do the content and rebuke it.
Of course people who don’t have rating don’t like it, they want to be accepted without merit. Even though the rest of us are forced to play by the rules and work out way up.
But when you seek to benefit from dethroning a system, why wouldn’t you? lol.
Like our friend here who says about the “gear and skill” but has absolutely no definable proof for us to go on.
Yeah, I can understand that.
Currently it puts all the power in the groups hands as opposed to distributing it amongst the players.
Like you said, just because the group is queueing for a +8 doesn’t mean that they have the experience or skill to do it. You don’t know until you are already in it and it’s possibly too late.
Especially when it comes to carry groups.
Edit: It would be nice to have an idea of what you are getting into.