I used to like to do lower ilevel M+ dungeon runs because it was fun and rewarding. However, ever since Bliz changed how those M+ 0-10 used to be, into the current higher difficulties than before, I’ve stopped doing them. I don’t see any justification in punishing myself doing what an M+ 0 used to be into what became an M+10 instead, making the old M+ dungeons into higher levels beyond what I would normally not do.
And they wonder why players don’t do them as often as before. Now it seems only those elite players pushing higher keys seem to be the only ones doing them. So it was not surprising to see an article in PC Gamer mentioning a decline.
" World of Warcraft’s competitive dungeon mode is struggling" Not surprised to see this headline today. https: //www .pcgamer .com/games/mmo/ world-of-warcrafts-competitive-dungeon-mode-is-struggling/
I’ve put spaces in spots in order to post the link to the article.
Nah it’s better now for sure. In prior xpacs you could fall asleep at the keyboard and still time everything up to a +10 until you actually needed to start to play. Now each level you go up actually increases the difficulty a noticeable amount, as it should.
Literally the article you linked quotes them talking about how they expected a drop in M+ participation due to Delves filling the same gearing niche on the lower end and how that isn’t a problem to them.
Not for everyone. There are players for which an old +2 required them to focus to get through. If you think those players shouldn’t be allowed in M+, that’s your prerogative. But it’s patently false to claim such players don’t exist.
This would have also been accomplished by removing every odd numbered key then squishing the remaining keys into the gaps this would leave. Removing the bottom rung of the ladder rather than expanding the space between the rungs was a mistake, and the 2-6 key wasteland shows this as far as I’m concerned. At this point I’m fairly certain Blizzard just wanted to maximize the chances players would run delves, so they made the competition less appealing.
It’s not about being “allowed”. Ultimately this is better. Before, those players were hitting walls at +7s-10s and flaming their team because they didn’t realize they were too bad to truly be doing the content. It was every other post on the forums during SL. They didn’t listen when you told them “you need to play better” because they just gestured at all of the painfully easy keys they’d already done as “proof”.
Now, they’re hitting a brick wall at +2 or +3 and coming saying the content is too hard. No excuse not to get better at that point. I’ll fully admit I’m not good enough or interested enough to hit 2k rating in PvP. I’m not going to cry on the forums that it needs to be made easier.
The “wasteland” is due to good players skipping those keys, bad ones not joining at all, and the fact that Gilded Crests start dropping at 8s which is what people really care about. Which is fine. +2-6 are the learning levels. If at this point in the season that’s where your skill cap is, that’s fine. But most of the people running keys are above that. It’s not the game’s fault you’re behind the curve.
Continuing this sweeping generalization doesn’t bolster your case. Many of the players I’m talking about never PUGed, they simply ran with friends and guildies. Many of the players said nothing when they did PUG. The point is there was a grouping of players for which their sweet spot was old 2-11 keys. And now those players do not have this difficulty range to play in M+ at all. They might have a similar difficulty from other modes and they certainly can get the gear that used to come from there; but the M+ experience is simply out of reach for them unless they improve to the point of a new +2.
How is this better than them hitting a wall at +12 and coming to the forums to complain? Moreover, how does them hitting their wall and coming onto the forums to complain impact you at all? You’re going to breeze past those key levels on day 1, especially if they removed half the keys as I suggested; those players who still want those ranges will not impact you at all.
It’s not just at this point in the season, it was a wasteland from the beginning because of the way delve loot overlapped. Players that were good enough to succeed in a +7 off the jump skipped over those ranges like you said. Players that were not were left with the choice of either playing key levels that offered no gear upgrades but were vital for experience or attempting to get into a +7.
Finally, this condescending tone you’re using is one of the main reasons why there is this massive divide between players who want to break into the challenging WoW modes and those that are already firmly established. Your experience would be practically unchanged if top end gear rewards were +20 and there were 10 levels of keys you skipped over every season at the bottom. But the players that like, want, or need those levels have that game mode as well. There is no less toxicity today because players are hitting walls at +2 rather than +10.
This isn’t a case where I think a player like you should sacrifice so the player at the low end of the M+ spectrum can feel more powerful than they are. Keys are just not materially different for players who are running at or above max reward level, yet the players who would prefer or benefitted from the old low level of keys aren’t allowed to play the mode anymore.
10 levels is not a “sweet spot”. It’s completely unnecessary bloat. If friends and guildies want the M+ experience on easy mode, just do heroic or M0 with your own timer.
Which is how it should be. If you’re not good enough to jump into +7s, then you shouldn’t be jumping into +7s regardless of your gear level. Not sure what game you were playing, but I took two characters from 2s to 10s at different times in pugs this xpac with zero issues. This “wasteland” argument is completely overblown. 5pm on a Saturday, peak gaming hours, and there are dozens of groups in LFG for each of those key levels. I just checked. These players are also always free to start their own.
Maybe for you. Not everyone plays at that level. Not everyone who is at that level loathes the timer.
And that’s to say nothing of trying to compress 10 levels into 2 will create some gaps as well. The heroic > M0 jump hasn’t been kind to everyone.
When I said wasteland, I wasn’t referring to the quantity, but the quality. The range of skill levels in that range is gigantic. They’ve combined players at the old low end who shouldn’t be there but want to run M+, players who belong there, and players who are just passing through into a few key levels. This leads to a lot of conflict as expectations are all over the place.
It SHOULD feel like a step up in difficulty. That’s the entire point.
That’s the nature of pugging no matter what. Before the squish there were tons of players that got carried through ridiculously easy keys and kept trying to do levels they weren’t prepared for, people doing them casually and people on alts trying to breeze through. Honestly, it made it even WORSE for casuals or low skilled players, because all of the good groups sub 10 were made up of 2k+ mains on alts that would refuse to invite anyone that didn’t have a main RIO score showing they actually did difficult keys. The divide between skilled and lower skilled already existed and it was even worse.
If you have specific expectations, run premades with people you can rely on to meet those expectations. Guilds, communities and friends lists exist for a reason. It’s been said a million times: if the majority of Player A’s pug groups are bad, there’s only one common denominator: Player A.
I never said it shouldn’t. I said the level of jump from heroic to M0 has been uncomfortable for some. I’m not saying we needed 10 difficulties between them, but I’m not convinced having 0 is ideal; there is a middle ground here.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t better before. You keep responding in these completely binary ways without any nuance at all. Key PUGing from BFA through DF was significantly better than it has been in TWW S1. The fact that it wasn’t as good as premades doesn’t negate the previous sentence. Like I said, perhaps we didn’t need as many levels as we had, but eliminating the entire lower third was quite extreme.
Throw in the minimal impact it has had on premades and the decision looks even stranger. I’ve seen nothing to suggest the 3 keys it saves premades on a new character is worth the havoc it has created on the low end. The only rationale I can come up with was Blizzard wanted to give delves the best chance to make a splash; otherwise it seems like a pretty bad unforced error.
The jump from Heroic to M0 is bad for some because they completely underestimate what that means. It’s not a single step. It’s literally at times a different game altogether. As it should be.
What many have said here are all correct. There WAS too much bloat at the bottom Mythics BUT removing the entire 1-9 tiers was also kinda rough. Today’s Mythic 0 should be more equivalent of old M6 or M7 maybe. Old M1 to M5 were pretty much press 2 buttons dungeons and should just be gone.
This is what I was pointing out. I am a casual player and did run those lower keys all the time with guildies, and an occasional pug who chose to join us when we were short 1 or 2 players. I enjoyed those lower keys, now I don’t do any M+ keys because of Bliz’s changes.
IIRC A +2 now is supposed to be equal in difficulty to around a +10 in the old system so I would assume so.
I think on paper the change was for the better but the implementation has been pretty bad personally. To me that comes down to how they’re wanting to design dungeon content now
I never paid much attention to it though, I’ve hardly done M+ this season cause it just feels terrible anyways without dedicated people to play with.