Only place I see shroud skips is HoA. And with shadowmeld and rez’s we can effectively pull off the same skips. The only other skips I see a lot can be done with locks and mind soothe.
But the utility would be the same, gear doesn’t effect utility.
So damage matters? And spec imbalances might put players at a disadvantage?
Shroud is HUGE utility in a coordinated group (see +20 keystone representation, Rogues are #1 melee class by a wide margin even though their DPS isn’t as high as Monk, DH, Warrior). It’s not that great in PUGs where tanks tend to already have a set route in mind that doesn’t account for having Shroud
Anyways, point really should just be that feral needs buffs, enhance needs buffs, ret needs buffs. I don’t see how anyone would argue against that.
I can see that. Shroud is more a liability in pugs without voice. Half the time it ends with half the instance pulled.
^ To name a FEW
MDI is on these days btw, you should tune in to see more Shroud skips.
Also if you rez you are wasting time to not only rez, but you’re also taking away 5 seconds from the timer and forcing someone into NE. Your logic is extremely dumb, to put it mildly.
In both cases, an ilvl 200 group will die. The one with more utility will last longer against the trash pull before falling over. You seriously have no idea what you’re talking about.
Balance brings Solar beam, which if you use it correctly stops significantly more casting than Skull Bash, even taking the cooldown into account.
At a higher level, number of interrupts is far less important than actually coordinating those interrupts. If you’re doing regular pulls, you’re not going to run out of kicks with a decent group consisting of lets say, a Mage, a melee DPS (take your pick), a Boomkin and a free choice between either a DH or Druid Tank. Less of an issue if you have a Shaman healer too.
And if you’re doing gigapulls, refer to my first point, as Solar Beam is significantly better when you’ve got three packs worth of casters sitting in it not being able to do anything.
In M+ i like to compare the best player in the world in each spec - this means, the player with the highest io for that spec in the worldwide rankings (excluding China, since their data is not 100% reliable). I think this is a better comparison, because it shows what is supposedly the highest said spec can perform, with the best possible skill, gear, team composition etc.
So, by that metric, the rankings would be that way:
Tanks
Protection Paladin, 2853
Brewmaster Monk, 2847
Guardian Druid, 2846
Vengeance Demon Hunter, 2832*
Protection Warrior, 2832
Blood Death Knight, 2789*
Healers
Holy Paladin, 2853*
Restoration Shaman, 2830
Discipline Priest, 2829
Holy Priest, 2760
Restoration Druid, 2752
Mistweaver Monk, 2741
DPS
Balance Druid, 2853
Fire Mage, 2853*
Windwalker Monk, 2853*
Marksmanship Hunter, 2847
Havoc Demon Hunter, 2845*
Arcane Mage, 2844*
Elemental Shaman, 2831
Subtlety Rogue, 2830
Affliction Warlock, 2815
Outlaw Rogue, 2812
Arms Warrior, 2797
Beast Mastery Hunter, 2796
Fury Warrior, 2790
Frost Mage, 2786
Survival Hunter, 2764
Shadow Priest, 2764
Destruction Warlock, 2754
Retribution Paladin, 2747
Assassination Rogue, 2742
Frost Death Knight, 2725
Unholy Death Knight, 2715
Enhancement Shaman, 2680
Feral Druid, 2600
Demonology Warlock, 2531
*: There is a higher io player but it is from China so i left it out of the list.
Seems like that would lead to percentage problems. See the lock portal skip after the first 2 packs, which can also be accomplished by mind soothe from priests.
I’m sure they’re used but the assertion that shroud is necessary is questionable.
Especially given that WW and Havoc are both beating rogues in IO as a spec.
At any rate, this is focused on balance at the +15 range, which is applicable to a vast majority more of the players than MDI level play.
i was in a DoS pug last night that shrouded to skip some of the drill trash in manastorms wing. nobody pulled anything and we pulled off the skip perfectly. it was an amazing moment and basically everyone was like “wow. gamers.”
It doesn’t, you pull more Gorms at the end, which die faster. Are you seriously suggesting these groups don’t complete the key? The lock gate technique doesn’t let you bypass the patrols. Shroud skip bypasses everything, the 1st thing you kill will be the Tormentor + the pack after him
Nobody said it’s necessary. But a rogue’s utility with shroud in higher keys/serious groups far passes anything a Feral can offer, so it’s wrong of you to say a Feral offers better utility than a Rogue does. It lets you pick and choose packs you want to clear and also allows more DPS pot use since you don’t need an invi pot to do said skip. That’s utility.
Oh we didn’t know you were in charge of what key levels we need to balance.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t bring in the fine intricacies of each spec and the nuances of a key and then conveniently choose to ignore valid points others have put forth and you can’t ignore what happens when the key level actually matters.
Any group of 5 with any cov + lego can clear any +15 in time. I’ve done +15s with 2 healers both on their healing spec.
I have not seen this at all.
i think most people just don’t know how many gorm packs there really are because most people just go straight up the left and pull only that one pack by the top and the two wasps
This is with the affixes, right? 
I guess I am not that bad then, given I don’t have a single shard.
Never said I was, it’s just what I’m talking about. And as the OP, that’s what I choose to look at.
But, is it your assertion the game should be balanced around +20’s? You’re the expert there, are they balanced at those lofty heights of ego?
Do you see a lot feral, enhancement, and demonology in +20’s? Is balance at +15 completely irrelevant to balance at +20? Are the under performing specs suddenly doing fine in higher keys?
What actually is your argument? Seem mostly it’s just “shut up, I do higher keys than you.”
The point was everything you’re saying & all the numbers you posted are with regards to your experience in +15 pugs, which is by no means a measure or standard for anything in terms on M+ balance.
Also most of the points you make seem to highlight that you have no idea how higher keys work, so your suggestions are pointless because they just make no sense. You’re making suggestions based off your feelings. Like how you only saw a Shroud in HoA so you think that’s the only place it’s only used, ever, by any group.
Basically, your idea of a key is:
This basically proves that you’re not really looking at things logically. There always comes a point with your group’s gear level where you can’t out gear a key. You have to use your brain and get a comp that has enough utility to time a key, reroute the key, get more effective pulls, etc. That’s how you PROGRESS.
You don’t just pull up numbers of +15s and cry doom and say that utility is useless.
But, is it your assertion the game should be balanced around +20’s? You’re the expert there, are they balanced at those lofty heights of ego?
Do you see a lot feral, enhancement, and demonology in +20’s? Is balance at +15 completely irrelevant to balance at +20? Are the under performing specs suddenly doing fine in higher keys?
… I didn’t say it was hard i said it had a high skill ceiling.
Any of them would have worked, I never justified Feral in anything.
That goes back to the skill versus environment argument. (environment being class/spec/faction “racial advantages,”/guild progression “gear level.” Etc.) The problem is the worlds #3 feral is probably better than the worlds #1 windwalker or UH DK because they don’t have to work as hard. When played near it’s ceiling Feral is incredible and will never be buffed as long as it’s representation is so small that the bad players aren’t there to drag down it’s performance. If they buffed Feral, my druid friend would be unstoppable.
Feral is target capped like many of the rest of us. In top keys they’re mass pulling so naturally they fall behind. I think this uncapping is going to make a massive difference for them.
I find it funny you continue to compare them to WW which is a current meta class with uncapped aoe. (only on their rising dragon kick or w/e but it’s enough) Rather than say Frost DK that shares their target cap issues.
Remove the AOE cap, buff drums, and boom everything is well again.
How is a +20 an ego boost though? Is it that unattainable for you?
If all your “balance” proposals are based solely on your +15 experience, and you think a key is just do X damage in Y time and utility isn’t needed, then yes everything you suggest is absolutely irrelevant.
To show people that Marksman Hunter is a must for a group. When you see me looking for a group on Dungeon Finder, you have to choose me over other Classes.
If this were true then world’s best feral wouldn’t be stuck doing mostly 22s and 23s while literally every other spec in the game is clearing +25.
If feral were buffed your friend would simply be brought to the level of similarly skilled players. Feral wouldn’t magically be OP, surpassing all other specs, because it’s already two key levels behind everyone else.
The target cap isn’t preventing other specs, like your example of FDK, from clearing higher keys. Feral’s primary AOE ability is uncapped anyway. What it actually lacks is burst AOE and interaction with berserk other than rake spreading. In its current state, uncapping AOE will actually result in other specs pulling even further away from feral, as swipe dps is much less than other classes’ similarly capped AOE abilities.