If some one wants to push half the buttons for a throughput ceiling of 60-70% of some one who does push their buttons then that’s fine. Eventually they will get to a difficulty level where they need to learn to use some buttons or their class just can’t handle the checks because they can only output 60-70%.
Never said anything about top 100 level, just top 100 on a specific boss.
And yea, copy that because it takes less skill to play (thus expecting a performance increase or more than what I was able to do) It was not to be.
People will still be just as bad even with one less active ability or two less.
This seems completely fair to me, and would be the ideal progression for that player. They may also find that by using those 60-70% effectiveness talents, but also using the base skills and spec rotation really really well they actually beat people using the more effective talents but playing worse because they aren’t currently able to perform it optimally.
Obviously for high end content you’d be needing more than that, but also you need to be better than semi proficient at the spec already by that point.
In the past players have, not necessarily affectionately, called these “Training wheel” talents. Ways to reduce mental budget at the cost of performance so that the player can focus on improving other aspects of their gameplay and then add back complexity as they’re comfortable / face content where they need to.
And that’s why there’s anomalies within top 100 dps of a specific boss since people picked suboptimal talents but did other stuff really well.
Did look up a few mythic bosses because I had to dps for some reason. Not anywhere remotely close to “and with these passives, you will succeed.”
Thus it’s questionable if it’s worth developing alternatives for everything.
Seems reasonable. Idk about the example the OP gave, I think it’s a little off the mark. I understand trying to reduce the number of spells to learn, I just don’t think having an external Nature’s Guardian on like 30% of the cooldown that heals for more is very balanced lol.
People do need to learn to react to certain situations, they can’t have the situation handled for them imo. Maybe instead of another button the passive makes a different heal do additional healing on low hp target.
That’s definitely valid. I don’t think there needs to be alternatives for every single active spell as the talent trees are pulling double duty as both customization and a substitute for learning spells whilst levelling.
As for ease of play, should every spec get a cheat death? Prob messes up PVP but for pve? hmm.
I cant really see people being happy with doing a capped 30-40% less damage than others. Heck, having just two players like that in a group is like having -1 dps
Let’s clarify some things.
Not 60-70% total performance, 60-70% less value per talent point for the points spent. A is worth 60-70% of B, not a person running a build containing A does 60-70% less damage.
It’s also 30-40% worse than someone performing optimally with the other talents, something very very few people can do anyway. It’s unlikely such a player capable of that is going to be running content with someone who feels it necessary to spec into a less optimal build.
Going back to this for a second. They’re not doing less than they were while they were struggling to grasp the rotation’s extra nuances / buttons. They’re likely doing better than they were because they’re able to focus on not dying and doing mechanics as well as handling a simpler rotation at least ok. They’re not worried about the fact they’re not beating a hypothetical person that isn’t in their keystone…
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Oh if you’re not happy being capped then spec out of the passives. Problem solved. If you’re running high M+ then you’re not going to get by with the passives. The whole point is to add some training wheels to help people get adjusted in the lower key levels.
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Remember the best players playing the most optimally can get up to crazy amounts like 235k dps overall.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RWp18vXwkxytYBhJ#fight=16&type=damage-done&start=19340636&end=21461426
So being capped at 70%-80% of that is maybe frustrating in high keys, sure, but still much much better than what many people are doing now that aren’t optimizing anywhere close to this amount. 164k overall is still pretty good as a cap. And you know, eventually you have enough practice and you can add in more of the optimal choices that brings you closer to the world best performance.
I don’t think keys are a good example because much of it is skewed by pull size.
I really, REALLY dislike this example to be clear. M+ performance is so so much more than build choice and individual player rotation execution.
You can dislike it but that’s what most people care about. 70% of this isn’t going to make you a trashcan.
Any amount of passives etc won’t compensate for the tank pulling half as much. DPS lacking might not even be the player’s fault.
Well, for MM and outlaw it will have no difference. But yes of course your dps is going to depend on your pull size.
Obviously not a real number but in this community people who never do stuff where it’d matter will call 5% differences absolutely unviable. A 30-40% difference would melt brains.
A good chunk of this problem is people who it will never even matter to not being able to deal with being specced anything less than top end, even if they are no where close enough in skill to actually use the advantage.
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I think that’s valid, and I do to an extent agree but people don’t start with that mentality. It’s taught to them by the community as a whole and perspective needs to be shifted to see any real positive change.
I’d also like to clarify, as I don’t think people are fully understanding the number I posted (Which is why I was so hesitant to post one at all) that is not the performance of the player as a whole, that is the performance of one talent relative to another.
So is the goal to make a passive build that cant misfire in any way that deals 70% of the better build when played optimally? Cuz im pretty sure even pro players would go with the simpler one due to the fact that its consistent. This isnt even taking into account how insanely difficult itd be to factor in things like cooldown usage and pull timing, mob attacks forcing suboptimal play, ect.
So more like active talent improves overall by 3% while passive gives 2%
(Assuming active talent is used well.)