Love the hypocrisy regarding how this game is supposedly an RPG. "Choices should matter!"

So people are rightfully skeptical with having player power determined by what covenant you pick. Which makes people forgo a covenant they’d pick for lore/aesthetics into the one that is useful for their class instead. Both Blizzard, and a smaller faction of players, use the crutch of “B-b-b-ut this is an RPG! You should always have meaningful choices!”

Which is correct. We should have meaningful choices added to the game. Then I read this…

Sylvanas Loyalists

Sylvanas’ Loyalists have abandoned her . While players were given the choice to side with Sylvanas or Saurfang during the War Campaign, there won’t be any future choices as to whether to side with the Banshee Queen during Shadowlands . There may be some flavor moments when interacting with certain NPCs which allude to the choices that were previously made, but there’s a single unified story in mind that the developers want to tell.

Oooh so there won’t be any future choices to make! You know, the thing that puts the RP into RPG! Convenient! So not only is our past choice not respected but they force you into a direction you may not want to pick. So choices don’t matter anymore. Unless it’s to defend the biggest problem of covenants.

Do choices matter, or do they not matter? Make up your mind Blizzard. Don’t come up with this nonsense as if you’re respecting players and their choices on one thing then completely ignore us on the other.

Look at what Blizzard says regarding covenants:

  • Some of the community thought Covenants were a cosmetic feature, but they are a core part of the gameplay and story.
  • You’ll have traits, trees of traits, Covenant specific legendary items, transmog, and more.
  • There is a whole package of Covenant specific things. Covenant abilities are just a part of the package.
  • The team hopes that they’ll be able to balance Covenant abilities so that there isn’t a huge power difference between them.
  • The team is holding out for meaningful choice.
  • Is the game still a RPG anymore?
  • The second that the team says that only cosmetics fall into the choices that are hard to change is when the RPG elements are removed from the game.
  • Not every power choice needs to be easy to change on the fly.
  • The team is trying to save the beating heart of the RPG genre.
  • The difference between Covenant abilities should be situational preference.
  • They can fall back to allowing you to swap Covenant abilities if they fail, but it’ll look odd and feel bad. The game loses something by doing so.
  • What is a path forward that isn’t just “Don’t ever attach power to any kind of meaningful choice”?

Funny how that was from the same breath that told players “We want a single unified story in mind that the developers want to tell.” Suddenly choices matter again!

Like look at this nonsense. “Is the game still an RPG anymore?” I dunno is it? Everytime I try to actually do something for roleplay I get screwed on gameplay. The one singular solitary roleplaying choice you finally gave us in the 15+ years has been dumped on. With confirmation that there won’t be any attempts to expand on this further. Yet you dare try to pretend you’re doing me a favor by keeping this an “RPG” with “meaningful” choices when I want to pick my covenant.

Except what if I wanted to pick my covenant because of its aesthetics or lore matching my character? Sadly that choice has been robbed from me. Since this is an online game you compete with other players and anyone who picks the suboptimal covenant for their class/spec will be at a disadvantage.

It’s adorable that you think you can balance 4 covenants so that they match a similar level of power. When you can’t even balance 3 talent picks in the same tier. 90% of talents are not a choice. There’s a best one, then there’s two other ones that are mathematically inferior. The only time we get to make a choice are on those rare rows that aren’t providing damage buffs and are like a QoL utility.

Can’t wait to waste an entire expansion for Blizzard to figure out that this is a bad idea all over again. Despite how players have already told them what is wrong time and time again.

TLDR:

There is no choice when your characters power is being decided by it. There’s a wrong choice, and a right choice. Anything else is an illusion. Keeping things tied to merely aesthetics would finally free us to make a choice we want to make. But apparently that goes against the “Is it an RPG if the choice isn’t meaningful” philosophy. A philosophy that is dumped right out the window when regarding story choices.

I dunno about you. But I think it’s a hell of a lot easier to come up with two alternate story paths for your character to take in the main story line. Than it is to magically find a way to balance 4 different covenants across the many class+spec combinations in the game.

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TLDR

:popcorn:

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There’s more to video games than min/maxing your character for one shoe-horned playstyle/comp. While I understand the complaint about the choice being too impactful, that’s the part that i’m excited about.

Do I think this is going to go off without a hitch? Of course not. I’m also not ready to give up on a convenant system I have both Not tried and Isn’t in Beta.

The only possible solution for the current Covenant whine is to make the abilities hit like wet noodles so everyone sucks the same? Gimmie a break.

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Can’t wait for my class to feel good by the end of the next expansion because of another borrowed power system that will grow each patch, choice or no choice.

Let classes be classes, that’s the solution.
A bit like they realised that gear should be gear.

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she posted like the longest OP in history. i’m not reading that. lol

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It just seems like the best way to fix this would make the abilities/soulbinds not covenant specific. Have the same loadouts, maybe have a forge like structure in each hall where you can go to change which of the “loadout” (this being, what each covenant as of now locks you into). This way, you still have a choice in which playstyle change you want to pursue, while also getting to choose cosmetic/story of your choice.

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This doesn’t even make sense. If it’s too impactful for your characters power then the choice is already made for you. You pick what gives you the most power. The actual player choice we could have made if it was aesthetic only was thrown out the window.

Yeah there is more to videogames than min/maxing your character. But those are other games. This is an MMO. There is competition. People pay big gold for potions/gems/enchants that give them a paltry amount of stats because that stat could be the difference between a wipe and a clear.

It doesn’t need to go through a beta or live to see that it’s a bad idea. We have a similar system of “player choice” in the game already. It’s called the talent system. Notice how those “choices” are rarely ever choices and there is always a best pick? They can’t even balance 3 choices that we already have and you’re trying to convince me that after a beta they’ll magically balance 4 choices?

Or since the story lets you work with all four covenants before ultimately picking one. They can tie your loyalty to one for the story and cosmetic rewards. Then the instant unlocking of their abilities. While forcing you to do an alternate grind to unlock the other abilities. The story and cosmetics of the other covenants being forever locked out.

Now you got powerful abilities. A head start on good ones if you pick gameplay over aesthetics. But ultimately as time goes on you’ll be able to play with the useful abilities later on. And the choice you made is still very important to the narrative of the game.

There’s a lot of non-combat, non-classe related power they can give with covenants.
Professions getting different bonus could be one. I’m sure there’s more to this game than just re-inventing the class design wheel each expansion with external systems that will be scrapped.

Choices do matter and I think being tied to a covenant will work better than the dead end they wrote themselves into with Sylvanas. You can’t have players be on the side of the new expansion villain. You were on her side till she betrayed you.

That is because the game is no longer played without every option being simmed to hell and back. Every “choice” made is now done with little to no personal input and purely based on simulations you didn’t do.

Modern gaming is the age of powergamers. No sacrifice is too big for a 1% dps boost.

I hate how the playerbase acts like it knows how to balance 3 unique skills in a talent row. WoW has a ton of variables to factor in with the insane amount of buffs and synergy between classes. The fact that some stuff is off only a little is impressive to me.

Obviously 2 of 3 skills will look useless when viewed through a mathimatical lens. Games should not be designed around the min maxed perfectly fair and balanced ideology. This is what has given us so much homogenization already.

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if any convenant gives you the ability to jump off crap and not die pre-flight it’ll be hard to not pick that one. but idk what actual kinds of stuff it’ll give you. XD

Would be nice!

Actually no I didn’t, and it took me like 1 minute to read cause I always read my posts before hitting the post button. Don’t let the squished centered text and big forum font fool you.

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There was never any implication that being a Sylvanas Loyalist vs not would have any actual effect on anything. (that matters).

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one covenant power will be
“you can’t be dced when landing”
I’m sure a lot of people would be happy with this one.

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i did the loyalist thing because forget soyfang. -.-

RPGs typically dont have choices.
Such as the final fantast series. Legend of zelda, etc etc.
I guess you hate those games too.

Yeah I’m kind of in that boat too. I completely understand Blizz when they talked about wanting to implement a new system with the want for your choices to actually matter. On paper the best gameplay decision in terms of balancing would be making the abilities flexible but it would come at the expense of having a sense of loyalty to the covenant you pledge yourself too.

“Hey Kyrians I’m pledging my loyalty to you. But hold on a second I need to raise some skeletons with the Necrolord abilities in neuter a mechanic on the 2nd boss in Heroic difficulty”

If each Covenant is powerful then the choice shouldn’t matter that much and people can play whichever one they want and find success.

For DKs the damage difference between abilities is minimal with secondary effects making up the loss.

you get to choose your build for the most part with more involved rpgs. i was surprised they let the loyalist thing happen because that’s not what i usually associate with normal rpgs. but idk. lol

Yeah but thats more stat allocation.
Other rpgs dont necessarily give choice was my point. Its kind of.up to the dev

we’re saying the same thing my dude. :stuck_out_tongue: