Losing your Stuff vs Losing Yourself

Something I’ve been thinking about lately.

A lot of folks have suffered losses in this expansion - moreso than in any previous one. Teldrassil is the obvious centerpiece of any such discussion - it represents the largest singular loss suffered by any playable people in WoW’s lifetime.

The thing is - Teldrassil’s loss isn’t something for players to be angry about. It’s stuff. It’s an asset. Characters in-game can and should be angry about it, but for players to be angry about it is absurd. We don’t live in Azeroth. We should be interested in characters for who they are, not what stuff they have.

What actually matters is the character of a people - their motivations and emotions. Know what’s a great source of both of those things? Losing stuff. It can be a great thing for pushing characters! Characters can grow and develop a great deal by losing stuff.

The Worgen are a great example. The loss of Gilneas didn’t destroy the Worgen as we know them, it essentially created them! Genn’s fury over that loss is at the core of his characterization, and he would be worse off without it.

So, if losing Teldrassil isn’t a “real” loss, what is?

Well, if we’re sticking with Night Elves: A Little Patience was a real loss. The Night Elves lost no material “stuff” in that scenario, but their military competency was degraded to make humans look good. Sira and Delaryn are perhaps real losses: not because they switched sides, but because their flimsy pretense for doing so makes Night Elves look stupid and fragile.

If this expansion ends with the Night Elves being expected to easily forgive Teldrassil, that would be a real loss, much moreso than the tree itself. The emotions generated by the loss of Teldrassil are powerful, and for those emotions to be discarded lightly would be a terrible thing.

This brings me to other peoples’ losses.

The Sunreavers in the datamined scenario. I’m not upset about the Purge of Dalaran as an act - it functioned as an excellent way to finalize the break between the Blood Elves and the Alliance, and remove any possibility of them ever going back. It created a more genuine reason for Blood Elves to participate in Red vs Blue conflict.

As a story beat, I like the Purge.

What irritates me is when the characters’ anger over this event is treated as invalid, or evil, or stupid - this degrades the Blood Elves as people. This is an actual loss.

Orcs have lost a lot in this expansion, and not for the first time. The premise of WCIII was “What if the Orcs are actually decent people, underneath it all?” The premise of Cataclysm, WoD AND BfA have all been “Actually, no, they’re monsters who will flip into genocide-mode with just the slightest nudge.” Saurfang will “redeem” them, of course… at least until it’s time for them to be the baddies again.

And, last but not least…

The Forsaken have lost everything.

In terms of “stuff,” they’ve lost Lordaeron. This is a big asset to lose, but you’d hardly know it from playing the game. Whereas the Night Elves have been set on a black-eyed vengeance crusade for the loss of Teldrassil, the Forsaken have not been permitted any such grief. Their position in the story as unrepentant villains does not permit for such sentiment.

In terms of leadership, the Forsaken have lost far more than anyone else. Sylvanas has been reduced to a cackling idiot whose every plan fails catastrophically - and who casually murders her own people for minor acts of insolence. Varian? Vol’jin? They exited the story, sure, but their characters were left intact.

If Tyrande and Malfurion were to die right now, the Night Elves would not have "lost" them to the same extent that the Forsaken have already lost Sylvanas.

Most of all, every time Blizzard casually flirts with the idea that the Forsaken might be mind-controlled, it’s a tremendous loss - it invalidates everything about every Forsaken character, totally robbing them of all agency. Word of God continues to tell us that this isn’t happening, but when dialogue writers have Forsaken NPCS thank Alliance players for killing them, what exactly are we supposed to think?

Anyway, this is already too long. TLDR: worry less about losing places and things. Worry more about losing the emotional core of your people.

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Except the Night Elves didn’t just lose “stuff,” their people were slaughtered in a genocide. What growth comes from having your race killed off?

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Love your thread. Losing stuff can set things in motion for good stories. But we are playing mop so no.

Your words should be read by the writers who don’t even know what this expansion is about. Sadly they are fixed on his ‘good story they want to tell but can’t and will not take negative feedback’.

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I mean… the Blood Elves grew from a similar event.

Thing is, the Night Elves aren’t really growing, they’re just moving past this weird stagnation they’ve been mired in since WoW began, and are slowly getting back to their WC3 selves. Ever since WoW launched, the Devs have focused on making them the Alliance’s High Elves, rather than just letting them be Night Elves.

So I guess there is no growth either way. Night Elves shouldn’t have had to of suffered genocide to go back to being Night Elves.

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I think all of this comparing scars is getting tiresome.

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I don’t get why we are arguing over which faction has lost more than the other, when neither loss was actually good for the story, and both losses were full of cheap shock/drama and nonsensical plot holes.

Why should it matter whether horde or alliance players “lost” more when it was Blizzard’s bad writing that did this to us, not each other as players?

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These are not mutually exclusive, and I disagree; players should be angry or whatnot over the burning of Teldrassil, just as they should be over Undercity. It, at the very least, shows that they care for the story or aspects of it to some degree.

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I was playing through the Undead starter zones today and felt sad because I realized all my efforts were pointless given what’s coming down the pipe. The futility of it alienated me from the place.

I imagine there’s a similar effect for the NE starter quests—nurturing Teldrassil, defending Teldrassil, cleansing Teldrassil.

Really solid post, OP. My only quibble is I’m not sure why you’re treating the tree as “stuff.” As an asset, bronze dragons keep it in game. But as a place with reality, a place that matters, it’s deflated — and WoW is as much about places as it is about characters.

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I feel like I saw a response in another thread that would be appropriate here:

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With all due respect, I think you’ve slightly missed what the OP is saying. Now, I want to word this very carefully so as not to make this seem like I’m minimizing what happened at Teldrassil, because it is huge, and horrific, and I totally get why players (on both sides) react strongly to it. I really don’t think Blizzard realized what a big deal it was going to be.

But Teldrassil is a particular type of loss, and what I believe the OP is saying is that it isn’t necessarily the worst type. Which I agree with.

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I agree. But I don’t think it’s ending any time soon, unfortunately. I suspect that many players of both factions have concluded that any salve for their complaints would be salt in the wound for players of the other faction, and so they’re competing for the position of sqeakiest wheel.

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Totally agree with the OP here.

Maybe there are not thousands of Forsaken civilians being killed, but one way of also butchering a race is to take away everything they once believed and stood for.

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Night elves have been in a constant downward spiral since at least Cata, having their themes and unique elements removed one by one, given to other races, or even outright ignored. Storylines constantly put in the spotlight their incompetence and their failures. Then we (we being Night elf players) had to see people mock them, both in-game and out of game. People called them regressive and unwilling to evolve (which isn’t true, Night elves changed the most out of every single race in an attempt to adapt to Azeroth’s new reality). The only thing we had left was the comfort of knowing that despite everything, we still had our lands.

Then the Burning happened. What do we have left after years upon years of stripping us of everything that made us unique? What do we have left after losing every territory we had? What do we have left now that we’re a nation of refugees without a theme of our own?

Nothing. The War of Thorns and the burning of Teldrassil were the removal of the last thing we had.
So forgive me if we’re a little salty about this.

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Lorewise, the nelves were push out of Ashenvale, Darkshore and Teldrassil which basically means that they were push out of Kalimdor which is at the core of the nelf identity. We got the feeling of beeing the punching bags for the 10th time while
Undead players lost undercity while doing the maximun damage to the Alliance whereas nelves lost their territory trying to save the most of lives.

You are basically saying that losing territory and numbers is meaningless because it allows for development and takes nothing. But the only development we got after WoT was nelves being what they should be from the start and it did take out a lot of nelf players pride as one of the strongest nation of the Alliance being reduced to be refguees in Stormwind.

I don’t like to compare which side is the worst, obviously playing Horde is awfull at the moment if you are not into evil stuff this expansion is just a mess, and if you are you will be punished soon enough. But there is no way to say which side has it worse, it is all a matter of perception and personnal emotions.

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I don’t think the OP was saying that. He did say “it represents the largest singular loss suffered by any playable people in WoW’s lifetime.”

I have sacrificed everything. What have you given?

Jokes aside, pretending the Forsaken have lost their entire identity while night elves haven’t is misguided at best, and flat-out lying at worst.

What do night elves have to hang their hats on?

  1. Sentinels have been reduced from “the perfect warriors” to generic mooks for the Horde to tear through like tissue paper, if Lorash “Coldsteel the Hedgehog” Sunbeam is any indication.
  2. Druids have been snipped apart from being entirely unique to night elves (at least in the capacity to shapeshift and conjure forces of nature) to being part and parcel for everyone that isn’t all about industrialized war-machines.
  3. Now, with the events of Darkshore, even Wardens are now no longer unique to the Night Elves as a faction, as Sira Moonwarden is now all about being Forsaken.
  4. Demon Hunters, again, exclusive to Night Elves in Warcraft 3, are able to be blood elves as well. I don’t begrudge that one nearly as much because Demon Hunters as a concept were kinda disconnected from the Night Elves when the Illidari came about, but it still remains.
  5. Giant tree capital city is torched. Ysera is gone. Nordrassil belongs to the Cenarion Circle, which remains neutral because of the plight of the planet. It’s just loss after loss after loss with nothing regained except integrating worgen into the night elves’ military structure.

She’s going down a dark road, but you can still choose to be loyal to Sylvanas and trust in whatever she has planned (or just be fine with the murder and mayhem, as many are).
The Forsaken are just as they’ve always been, with almost no regard to the loss of their capital other than the civilians in Orgrimmar. Forsaken aren’t “allowed” that aspect of vengeance because it was their own leader that made it uninhabitable on top of them generally just not giving a damn. It’s just the players who might feel that connection, but that would go for the loss of any starting zone for any reason.

Forsaken remain as they’ve always been, at least since Cataclysm.
What is Night Elven identity now?

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I think this is because things have been set up as such. Many an Alliance player have expressed that they would be not satisfied unless Sylvanas suffers.

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Many an Alliance player have expressed that they would be not satisfied unless Sylvanas suffers

It’s ok. If those players suffer, I’ll get to sip my Zinfandel red wine and do a pleased little shimmy of spite.

So, either way, someone’s gonna get something from this.

This is giving me flashbacks: