Again, why do you think people will just all of a sudden steal when they didnt before. There should always be a conversation at the start of the run about what loot rules are… did you not have these in your groups? No game mechanic stopped people doing it before for the extra vendor gold or for an extra shard… why do you think people will all of a sudden behave different? If people dont follow the loot rules you agree on at the start of the run they will get kicked, just like before. Where is this new danger you keep talking about because I cant see it. Are there ways to misuse loot trading… yes, but there are already so many ways to do it that I just dont see why you worry about this one when other ways are already possible and more effective to boot.
1 minute is too long
10 seconds is too short to fix genuine mishaps, but is just long enough for someone who didn’t want the item to give it to their friend
loot trading should not exist at all
I’m not going to get bogged down in minutiae. I had faith in the system, which worked just fine in my experience, because there was no option to do what you think could work for you or whoever.
I’ve already said, most groups at any level I ran, did not use master loot. With hardly any problems. Whether it’d be a ninja or someone mistakenly needing on an item.
I’m also repeating myself about a meta that could become toxic. You’re introducing a system that can be exploited-much more than before.
Why do I think people will start stealing, all of the sudden? I don’t, and neither do you. Furthermore, if you are content with master loot, then why bother even having this system in place?
Maybe because it will suit your needs. Maybe you can roll need and make some money. Maybe you can funnel gear much better. I say, go for it and see if it becomes meta.
I’ve addressed your points. And not once did I ever scream “because it wasn’t in Vanilla.”
I’m gonna be really pissed off if I run uldaman 4 times in a row to get a 2h from archaedas, only for some mage to need on it and then give it to his friend who lost the need roll
If you like me dont think people will all of a sudden start stealing then how is the meta going to shift? For this shift to happen people have to start stealing items where they didnt before. This time around especially I think the average person will have a more relaxed attitude towards loot since there is no unknown future of what is coming next and how classes might change. (I think this is really the biggest change to the whole wow experience no matter what other changes they make, but thats a different conversation altogether).
I honestly dont care if loot trading makes it in because I didnt see the problem very frequently when I played, not never but not that often. In non ML groups the biggest problem was usually a newbie or kid clicking things because there was a timer bar on the screen. I was actually in a few groups/raids though were tickets were sent and I confirmed the next day that the ticketed item actually go moved to correct player. Blizz apparently had a noticeable ticket volume from it though, and if you have the gm’s read the chat from the time as well to make sure everything is proper and people are not just trying to swap items around then I can see how these kinds of tickets take way more time than the average to deal with and why they want to lower the ticket numbers. I wont begrudge blizz a reduction in manpower requirement for a fear that I think is exaggerated.
Have they clarified how loot trading will work in Classic? Is it going to be exactly like on retail or will it have some added restrictions? Possibly, only loot given out in Master Loot is tradeable, for example.
Id rather play in a high risk high reward atmosphere where there is no chance of loot recovery after a ninja or some kind of error than in a game with the sort of crutches that loot trading adds to Classic WoW.
When you change the rules to a game; no matter how small you think that change may be it always changes the game meta.
A seemingly microscopic change to taunt and threat management changes the entire outcome of PvE raiding in a single patch… 1.11x gameplay was a very different experience from 1.10x and before.
The changes look small on paper, but they’re massive in practice.
If you’re worried about people’s friends helping them ninja loot… wouldn’t the simple answer be don’t invite a group into your group?
If that answer isn’t good enough… simply go to what ever non official reporting system you can find and tell on them and black list them/guild? No matter what though with loot trading or not there will always exists people who are going to try to pull one over on you.
The issue I have with it is when used beyond master looting. It should not be applicable whatsoever for need or greed rolling, full stop.
That is definitely an added issue. At least with Master Loot, you can see it’s being used and get the heck outta there. People abusing loot trading will be much less obvious immediately. In fact, you may never even know it took place unless you investigate further. The dude could hold onto the item until after the run and trade it later.
I never said I believe or didn’t believe all of the sudden that players would start stealing. I don’t know and neither do you. (Clearly people are afraid of thieves within their own guilds, and why the out of control guild bank threads!) So yeah, they exist. Let’s not be naïve about online players.
The system in vanilla wasn’t perfect but I believe it was fair enough. I’m just cautious about a system that can potentially turn honest and fair players into greedy players.
Needing on items I can’t use? To what end?
Extorting money from one or more people, who could actually benefit from an upgrade? It’s opportunistic behavior that could easily turn toxic while grouped and during transactions.
Screwing someone, maybe you, who spent all day grinding a dungeon, only to lose out on an item you clearly would have won if not for the other guy’s friend(s) in the group rolling on something that they would have never rolled on in the current system? So why did he and the other three guys roll need? So they could give it to their friend. Sorry.
It’s just not a meta I would like to get into.
As far as setting pre-conditions, sure, but how is that different than ML? I know you say that your groups used ML during level 60 runs, but I honestly don’t remember using ML prior to raiding, which made sense when using loot council or DKP.
But for a pug? Even when I was guilded, I pugged plenty. No way most people would unanimously agree to master loot in a pug. If you agree to master loot, you either trust the master looter or your a fool if you don’t.
So don’t pug? What’s the point of player trading when it’s all guildies? Standard loot is working as intended.
Cut down on GM tickets?
I think they could approach this in a couple of different ways.
Can’t need on items you can’t use, and/or add a player trade to the already existing list of loot options. They always gave us the choice before, why not on this?
Mistakes? If I’m Blizzard, I say tough luck, and they need to be up-front about it, that they will not be handling mistakes made during looting.
Ninjas? Well, guess what, it must be your unlucky day because now you could be dealing with up to four. Safety in numbers.
If the meta gets nasty, you can bet GM tickets are going to go up.
I’m reasonable person, and why you will not see a single post from me saying “but it wasn’t in vanilla,” as my goto money play.
Yeah, I’d trade player trading and sharding away for guild banks! ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
That is exactly the kind of exclusively that will develop because of the modern WoW system if it is included into Classic WoW.
This is one of the reasons why I am against it.
Classic WoW is about community, and part of the reason the community in classic develops in the way that it presently still does even in the private servers is because of the original formula for game systems shapes the community.
If you change the in game tools; you change the game.
It looks like a small harmless change, but it’s not.
I would rather there be no I’m game GM support than these modern automated system that produce a different game experience.
You said in post 85 you didnt think people would start stealing all of a sudden.
I know that different servers worked differently, I was on silverhand which was an original west coast rp servers. It was a great server with lots of options for how to play if you were alliance (alliance way outnumbered horde) . I have no idea why ML became the standard looting type but it sure did. I leveled faster than most of my guild so I spent a lot of time in pugs for brs/scholo/strat . I remember lots of time people talking about the loot droops and who would benefit most from what in a need greed system and the group letting the timers run down and rolling on them with /roll afterwards because the timers were to short to chat first. ML just naturally took over on our server and by late vanilla pretty much all higher end pugs that I was ever in were ML. Loot rules were always stated at the start and the people rolled on items with /roll and items went to who won them.
They did this at some point, warriors can still roll on anything though and it gets more restrictive from there. If you make it more restrictive like letting people only roll on their highest armor type then dps warriors will never get a decent dps set. I would guess loot trading as a loot option would be a lot of coding work since its not a feature you can currently turn off.
They have been supporting fixing these kind of mistakes since the game came out, it would appear to be part of their customer service mindset and is thankfully unlikely to change at this point.
Those are some bad ninja’s, dont they know they could get 4x the amount of loot if they each ran their own ML run and took what they wanted? Honestly if some guilds start doing that sort of thing word will get around and people simply wont join their groups.
The players control the meta, that includes you. You would be far better off advocating fair loot rules and having discussions about that. Advocate for larger ignore lists or get a ninja list app organized. These would be useful no matter what loot systems exist (well I suppose personal loot makes then unnecessary but I havent seen anyone advocate for that)
Organize good and fair runs, if people agree with that kind of run you will always find lots of people to fill your slots. You can read this board and see how people were reserving items even back in vanilla. People will always find ways to be unfair if they choose. Dont do it yourself and make friends with people of like mind and you will have a great time. There will always be people who you wouldnt want to play with… avoid those and find ones you like.
My server in vanilla actually ran a really large raiding system for all the people who were in smaller RP guilds that wanted to raid but not leave their guilds. It was called leftovers raiding and they had I believe up to 4-5 active raid groups at their peak, two of which were either clearing aq40 or working on cthun around the time nax came out. It was all website organized and had nothing to do with blizzard. We as players make the meta what we want.
This board is full of people giving examples of how they were jerks in vanilla… then there is all the private servers that shut down because of gm loot selling etc. You are being blind to the reality of the past while being paranoid about the future.
The community will be how we as players make it, blizzard doesnt control it, we as players do.
Kinda funny since the OG loot system in Vanilla created a toxic atmosphere of exclusivity too.
I do advocate fair loot rules, I’m currently championing the one that was always in play.
If this is the case, I don’t see why player trading is a better alternative to ML. You would still be able to correct mistakes, without the worry of players needing on items for friends or extorting money.
This is fine and dandy, but I’m not understanding what this has to do with player trading. Again, how is player trading a better alternative to ML?
Sounds to me like you take time to vet your team mates and just set loot to ML. So why advocate for player trading? Why create unnecessary risk?
Again, I never had really any bad experiences with need before greed. I made friends in pugs under this standard, so yeah, they earned my trust, and we would group up again and again, but rarely, if ever, did we use ML. Not because we didn’t trust each other, but because the system worked and we were competent enough to not make mistakes.
99% of the time, someone would ask, “Okay if I need on this?”
It’s funny you call us paranoid, yet your the one running around with ML and vetting your team mates. Not saying this a bad thing, but if my experiences were so bad, I, too, would be using ML and vetting my team mates.
ML is just not practical to me outside of raiding. If anything, maybe you should consider removing the old system in favor of ML, since you have so much faith in it.
You haven’t moved the needle as to why player trading is potentially is a better system. If anything, the moment you said you would need on an item you already had, only to try to sell it to someone who could actually equip right there and then, said all I needed to hear. Opportunistic behavior. It places players in a position of power, which can create toxicity by either parties. Not healthy.
Tell me, these ML groups you were running around with? Think everybody would have been okay for you to need on items you had just so you could make a buck from someone in your own party?
Doubtful.