Ion Hazzikostas announced t̶o̶d̶a̶y̶ yesterday that "loot trading," the two-hour window to trade BoP loot to another eligible person, is going to be in Classic.
This is an unacceptable change to the social dynamics of groups and guilds.
He stated the reason for this change is to reduce the number of tickets Blizzard receives about mislooted items. I understand the importance of this from Blizzard's perspective: fewer tickets means shorter wait times and possibly fewer support staff required by Blizzard.
However, in his presentation he failed to address the UNINTENDED uses of loot trading.
Personally, I have used the loot trading system hundreds if not thousands of times since it was introduced. Nearly zero of those were used for Ion's intended purpose of correcting a looting mistake.
Over 99% of the time the feature is used, it is used for an unintended purpose.
What are some of these uses?
1) Selling items
Maybe I rolled on the item simply because I knew I could sell it to someone else in the raid within the next 2 hours.
Maybe I want to quit my guild but first want to cash in my remaining DKP and/or goodwill, so I get items I don't really want and turn around and sell them to other attending players.
2) Getting your friends to roll for you
Say I attend a PUG on my main and bring my friend on his alt. His alt is poorly geared, so when an important item drops which is a small upgrade for me but a large upgrade for him he begs the group to give it to him and they do. Then he just gives it to me under the table.
Or maybe his alt isn't undergeared, or the group's not falling for it. In that case, we both roll Need and I end up having 2x the chance of winning the item.
This happens A LOT. This is overwhelmingly the most common usage of the system.
3) Ninja looting while obscuring who the ninja is
The day ICC came out, I ran it with my Warrior and Mage friends. My Warrior friend was trying for Gladiator and wanted the Bryn'troll, a good 2H axe from the first boss. It dropped. My Mage friend was a casual player whose subscription was about to expire. The Mage rolled Need, won the 2H axe, got called a ninja and was kicked from the group, but he traded the axe to my Warrior friend. The Mage was known as a ninja by the pug community on our server after that but the guy who really got the item kept his reputation clean via this absurd loot system.
4) Master Looters holding loot hostage
Annoying af when a raid leader decides to hang on to all the loot in the raid for 1hr50min and only hand it out at the end just because the system allows him to.
Even more annoying when he claims he's going to hand the loot out at the end and just keeps it all.
I'm certain there are more terrible uses of the loot trading system which I can't remember right now. It is a commonly used system which is almost never used for its intended purpose.
PLEASE reconsider using this system. It creates vast social disruption regarding loot and provides multiple incentives for scummy behavior which otherwise would not exist.
2 Likes
11/04/2018 01:02 PMPosted by NawakIon Hazzikostas announced today that "loot trading," the two-hour window to trade BoP loot to another eligible person, is going to be in Classic.
He actually announced it yesterday. So how can we believe anything else you say in this post?
Only 1 reason.
It wasn't in vanilla.
It wasn't in vanilla.
11/04/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Lagspike11/04/2018 01:02 PMPosted by NawakIon Hazzikostas announced today that "loot trading," the two-hour window to trade BoP loot to another eligible person, is going to be in Classic.
He actually announced it yesterday. So how can we believe anything else you say in this post?
Its not a new system. It was in since WOTLK along with other things like LFD, there were way more chances to abuse the system.
11/04/2018 01:11 PMPosted by LagspikeHe actually announced it yesterday. So how can we believe anything else you say in this post?
okay thanks for the very important correction. i appreciate you and your contribution
11/04/2018 01:14 PMPosted by CyberreturnsOnly 1 reason.
It wasn't in vanilla.
This alone should be a good enough reason. But I see that Blizzard has a financial incentive to include this feature (less support staff required). I think they may not realize just how widely abused the system is.
If they truly understood how much scummy behavior is enabled by this system I don't think they would agree to include it in Classic.
The only problem is none of this behavior is curbed by loot trading being blocked...you just add the need for more GM support.
I raided in retail Vanilla and the amount of loot drama and loot mistakes and GM involvement was nuts.
I actually like the idea of Classic servers being around for a while, and therefore would like to reduce costs for Blizz if possible.
If you can come up with a good reason why loot trading is game breaking, I will back you, but I am not convinced any of these issues will be solved by blocking it.
I mean, most of my raiding time in Vanilla was without the Need before Greed system, I don't think anyone opposes that...this is along the same lines but actually smarter.
Peace
I raided in retail Vanilla and the amount of loot drama and loot mistakes and GM involvement was nuts.
I actually like the idea of Classic servers being around for a while, and therefore would like to reduce costs for Blizz if possible.
If you can come up with a good reason why loot trading is game breaking, I will back you, but I am not convinced any of these issues will be solved by blocking it.
I mean, most of my raiding time in Vanilla was without the Need before Greed system, I don't think anyone opposes that...this is along the same lines but actually smarter.
Peace
1 Like
I agree, and so I think there should be no loot trading under any circumstances, even if a GM is involved.
Their reasoning is to not want to have to pay CS to trade items that were mistakenly looted - fair enough.
Then there should be no BoP loot trading under any circumstances, even if you raise a ticket. I am totally fine with that.
Their reasoning is to not want to have to pay CS to trade items that were mistakenly looted - fair enough.
Then there should be no BoP loot trading under any circumstances, even if you raise a ticket. I am totally fine with that.
11/04/2018 01:02 PMPosted by NawakOver 99% of the time the feature is used, it is used for an unintended purpose.
I'd love to see you support that, 99% of the time I see it used it's used to correct a mistake, you know as intended.
no customer support for items and no loot trading. let players have full responsibility and items have their critical importance when looting
I really do think this will have a profound change on the game.
I remember when this was first added (LK i think?)
Friends in PuGs would ask me to roll need on stuff I didnt need so I could trade it to them. This WILL happen, and it will diminish game integrity.
I remember when this was first added (LK i think?)
Friends in PuGs would ask me to roll need on stuff I didnt need so I could trade it to them. This WILL happen, and it will diminish game integrity.
Then pugging will deemed a toxic wasteland and people will turn to guilds and only run with guildies.
What's left for pugs..the ninja's can run with each other and ninja off each other.
Guilds will become much more important. And those ninjas won't get into the good guilds cause no one wants a guildie who's a known ninja.
What's left for pugs..the ninja's can run with each other and ninja off each other.
Guilds will become much more important. And those ninjas won't get into the good guilds cause no one wants a guildie who's a known ninja.
11/04/2018 01:59 PMPosted by KastraelieI raided in retail Vanilla and the amount of loot drama and loot mistakes and GM involvement was nuts.
Really? I had ~175 days /played in vanilla including extensive raiding experience and never needed a GM ticket to redistribute loot for myself. As I recall it only happened a handful of times in my entire guild.
Like I said, I personally used the loot trading system literally hundreds of times in my WoW career and only ever used it to correct a looting mistake like two or three times.
11/04/2018 02:27 PMPosted by BrockthornThen pugging will deemed a toxic wasteland and people will turn to guilds and only run with guildies.
What's left for pugs..the ninja's can run with each other and ninja off each other.
Guilds will become much more important. And those ninjas won't get into the good guilds cause no one wants a guildie who's a known ninja.
As I explained in my OP, loot trading is abused within guilds as well. Members cash in their goodwill (or, in Classic, DKP) for items just prior to gquitting which they sell to others. Officers withhold loot for arbitrary reasons. Cliques subvert loot council by trading items amongst themselves. It's rampant.
How is this different from a raid leader abusing master loot? How many times have we heard of people gearing their girlfriends and buddies like that. At least this way if some ninja “accidentally” loots an item you can ask him to give it to the right person. When he doesn’t he’s a ninja out him on blast and people will know to avoid him.
This isn’t a new problem people will do shady stuff to get gear. The whole the community will police itself was thrown arround but all of the sudden that’s not good enough?
This isn’t a new problem people will do shady stuff to get gear. The whole the community will police itself was thrown arround but all of the sudden that’s not good enough?
But what about the community policing so often touted as an excellent panacea for wicked behavior? What about us, the fair minded members of the classic community, alienating ninja looters and relegating them to untouchable status and so forth? Why wouldn’t the people who engage in the described negative abuse of the system not find themselves at odds with the very same even-minded classic community? If I caught wind of a couple of buddies engaging in your feared “hey dude, roll on that for me” kind of behavior, they would not find a spot in any of my future runs. Come now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
11/04/2018 02:45 PMPosted by Nawak11/04/2018 02:27 PMPosted by BrockthornThen pugging will deemed a toxic wasteland and people will turn to guilds and only run with guildies.
What's left for pugs..the ninja's can run with each other and ninja off each other.
Guilds will become much more important. And those ninjas won't get into the good guilds cause no one wants a guildie who's a known ninja.
As I explained in my OP, loot trading is abused within guilds as well. Members cash in their goodwill (or, in Classic, DKP) for items just prior to gquitting which they sell to others. Officers withhold loot for arbitrary reasons. Cliques subvert loot council by trading items amongst themselves. It's rampant.
I never had guild problems. We didn't use DKP or anything. We just rolled need/greed and shared stuff.
it doesnt even have to be be blatant ninjaing. say your going for truestrike shoulders and you have them but your friend doesnt. you can just take off your truestrikes for the run and put on something else then roll on the shoulders, win and trade them to your friend and put your original ones back on. without loot sharing this wouldnt be possible
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
11/04/2018 03:49 PMPosted by OogaDo content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Do content with your guild and none of this matters.
Yeah sure, assuming you are in a guild where people are always around to do things with you at the level you're at.
But this is impractical advice and an undue burden to expect people to bear considering it is completely solvable by just making it the way it was.
Best to just design the game mechanics as they should be.