That’s a solid point. But that’s why I think the idea of letting gear and transmog be literally seperate things with different rolls, so people can get geared and others can get the appearance they want.
And letting the tmoggers be able to come back for the mog multiple times would solve some of the other problems.
stop arguing semantics just to try and have a point. Player power is not the same as transmog. You don’t get more powerful.
You are thinking of the concept of being greedy and desiring power for nefarious ends.
No, we just want to be able to stab the boss a bit harder than before.
The greed comes in when you are needing on things just for the appearance and nothing else.
And thats why it should be seperate. Let people get their mog AND the people can still get their upgrades.
There is always a solution when you want to find one.
good idea.
they might. But such is the nature of power. always fleeting, slipping between the fingers like fine sand.
No not at all. Players who “need” LFR for gear are not moving on to greater things, they’re gonna max out to a point and then quit. Delaying that endpoint means extending the MAU. Which is also why handing out free transmog won’t happen, engagement metrics won’t allow it.
The ONLY argument that means anything is whether the annoyance of losing loot rolls is enough to noticeably impact sub numbers. That’s a stretch. It certainly could be a factor but not a primary one for unsubbing. And the simpler solution is not to screw around with roll rules, it’s to disable Inspect in LFR.
I actually enjoyed the way FF14 handles loot to an extent. They have a Need/Greed system as well but when you win a single piece of loot you are loot locked to that boss until reset and you forfeit your other loot rolls from that boss.
If you received nada for that boss you could run it again until you do win something. It meant dedicated grinders would eventually get something. Granted FF raids are usually 8-man single boss instances so it’s a lot faster, but it works for them.
Do I think it would work in WoW? Maybe, given the amount of no-lifing the community already does. But it would certainly compound the amount of complaints. “I ran Fyrakk 100 times today and didn’t win a single piece of loot”
Not arguing semantics, I am pointing out that your initial take on the situation is not consistent with the reality of the game. You say need is for player power, that is not some cosmic truth just because you wish it to be so.
Why would it be “altruistic” for a player to pass on a piece of gear he needs to be able to play the game to someone who is already fully geared and wouldn’t do the same in return? Do other players merely exist for your amusement?
Definitely! I’m 100% in agreement with you here, and I think that they should be equally accessible at the same levels of content. Realistically, the idea that only one player can win one piece of gear feels like archaic MMO design at this point, anyway.
This is where I think we might disagree a little more strongly. I think the era of MMO progression being measured purely by increasing player power is falling a bit to the wayside; nowadays, character customization and transmog are equally, and sometimes even greater sources for player retention and resub value.
This is a game after all, so “beneficial” is really an arbitrary line that we each have to draw for ourselves. For many players both in WoW and in comparably sized MMOs, a lot of players only access high-end content to begin with to obtain transmogs. I would argue that with that being the case, it’s an equally valid form of progression because it drives the same level of engagement.
I would say that culture is a lot stronger in FFXIV, where “glamour is endgame” is pretty much a universally accepted truth of the game, but we can clearly see how important it is to a lot of WoW players, more and more as times passes.
FWIW, I respect that you’re offering and quoting legitimate solutions that appease both parties here, but I do think you’re giving gear progression more legitimacy when there’s not really any objective reason why it should be considered more important. It’s just that different players in the same content have different goals.
Overgeared folks who also do stuff like explain fights are well worth the cost of a few drops in exchange for not needing stacks of determination to get through every boss, especially since as the season goes on, there’s less and less they can roll on anyway. If that 1/3 is now always people eligible to need on everything it’s just going to take even longer to get stuff with more competition.
I also think it handles gear progression a little better, because raids give tokens that can be exchanged with relevant dungeon currency for upgraded gear, meaning you don’t really feel you’ve wasted your time even if you don’t get anything.
And usually you do get something, because 14 also has separate, smaller groups so you aren’t competing against nearly as many people. I’ll just say as a casual player of both games, I feel a lot better about raiding in FF14. If I see a piece of raid gear I want as a glamour, I know I can get it. If I see one in WoW, I’m immediately dreading the farm and desperately looking for alternatives or hoping one of the easier to obtain PVP recolors is a decent substitute.
It would be altruistic to not roll on something that they want for the benefit of someone else who wants it. I don’t expect people to not roll on an item so I can have it, that is not a reasonable expectation. I am not asking people not to roll since I want it more, sometimes you lose the roll. But it isn’t more greedy to roll for one reason as opposed to another, they participate in the fight they are valid to roll on the item.
This is a really good way of putting it, yeah. I’m literally only in the raid because I want a transmog. As it stands now, my only option would be to wait until the content is outdated to have any chance of obtaining it. That’s not really a fair solution for mog farmers, especially because they’re every bit as willing to put in the work to gear up and do the content.
At least then the loot is going to people who are using it. It’s not losing rolls that feels bad, it’s losing rolls to people who are blatantly wearing better gear than what they’ve just won.
And again, you’re missing the point. LFR needs to be able to stand on its own with the players its aimed at. It is not aimed at experienced raiders in full M+20 upgraded gear and Heroic Raid trinkets.
If you take away the experienced and overgeared players and LFR turns into a total mess, it’s a failing of design and tuning for the level of content it’s attempting to cover, and that would need to be addressed.
Making bosses reward locked would massively accelerate loot and mog acquisition. I tend to think this would be largely well received, though I would despise having to grind raid kills personally. If this loot paradigm were to be applied to heroic and mythic raiding the grind levels would be absolutely brutal on a pug level.
To be fair, it’s also impossible to know at a glance if someone is rolling for transmog or just because they saw the dice. I wouldn’t feel any worse about losing a roll to someone for transmog than for a gear upgrade, you just can’t tell the same way.
People who are rolling for the appearance will use it too. As for it turning into a total mess… I have seen people stand in Raszageth’s breath weapon multiple pulls in a row. Unless the fights are turned into a training dummy, there are people who simply are incapable.
if u do not like ppl winning the rolls… dont do that content?
i dont join pug raids expecting to win every single piece of gear. they are completely random players
same for lfr, its literally LFR… the lowest form of content there is at endgame. if i lose the roll, who cares? do it again next week. acting like LFR is DIRE LOOT that is needed is insane
It would also feel just as bad if someone lost a roll to someone who was sidegrading(better secondary stat spread) when it was like a 15% upgrade for someone else. Like that second person is losing to a better geared person too. The other thing is you kinda have to just be realistic. The system is what it is and those people are acting within the system. People shouldn’t have to pass or push a meaningless button(transmog button, for the most part) and that’s why they do it. It’s not to be rude or ruin your day. Nobody is owed an item just because it would be a nice upgrade anymore than someone is owed an item because they think it looks good.
If you’re arguing that removing those players would break it, then it does seem to be aimed at groups that include some of them.
Blizz has had the feedback about getting those folks out for years. They clearly want them there and tune to include them. (Plus they built GL to skew loot towards the lower geared people, another indicator that they believe it’s a mutually beneficial situation)