Please give us personal loot back, nothing has caused more stupidity in my groups, honestly I dont care if both options stay but give personal loot back for those who want it. People say that personal loot caused drama but ive seen more people pissed about loot this xpac than ever before.
8 Likes
Personal loot is just the computer rolling need for everyone automatically. So just click need every time it pops up.
9 Likes
Personal loot did cause drama from people expecting others to trade what they got, but that isnāt the main rub for those who donāt care for it. The problems are:
- It generates an inflated number of rings, necks, and cloaks across consistent raid groups, making it harder to get more useful items like weapons and trinkets.
- Trade restrictions based on item level caused more wasted loot because players couldnāt trade things that were item level upgrades but performance downgrades (or situations like where a person couldnāt trade their 5th tier piece to someone who still needs their 4 piece).
- It wasnāt drama free as like I said, there were addons to whisper everyone who looted and item begging for a trade. And then there were similar threads as weāre seeing now demanding that higher geared players should have lower priority for being selected for loot from personal loot.
- Personal loot provides mathematically worse chances at getting items than group loot. People vastly misrepresent what personal loot was good for when compared to group loot, leading to the volumes of āpersonal loot is betterā posts we see on the forums with people who do not understand how the loot systems work at all.
To make sure itās clear, I recognize personal loot has its merits. There are times when it does make sense for certain groups. I am not fundamentally opposed to it returning as an option for groups that want to use it, and for LFR to have for default. Itās just nearly everyone who advocates for its return make claims about how PL functioned that are wildly inaccurate, and then argue with people who actually know how it functioned when corrected. PL has its place, but most times people mistakenly think it will improve their odds at walking away with loot; except in extreme cases of skewed group compositions and transmog, it does not.
5 Likes
Itās not coming back. Nor should it.
GL isnāt causing the stupidity. The lack of people understanding how the systems work is the issue.
PL wouldnāt fix what youāre complaining about.
Itās not coming back because of how easy it was to exploit which is why it was removed.
You have seen more uneducated people complaining about things that they donāt understand.
The main complaint is people needing and selling items because cross server gold trading was changed.
That wouldnāt be fixed with PL.
3 Likes
I know what youāre saying and overall I agreeā¦but realistically its not coming back. Blizz did not like players having that much control over what loot was dropped, so until they come up with a better systemā¦it is what it is.
2 Likes
I agree but it seems since wow started thereās always been loot problems and complaints.
The issue is that the two sides will never agree.
The main issue is that one side tends to spread a lot of incorrect information because they have a complete misunderstanding of how the systems work.
5 Likes
How about bring back Justice Badges and vendors with gear for it again.
1 Like
Iām not sure how thereās any way to actually prove that this is a thing.
Yes, the trade restrictions were a bit stupid, I agree. Easily solved however by Blizz lifting said restrictions but there you have it.
This was the biggest issue and ironically, plagues GL in a similar fashion. People may not use loot begging addons anymore (or maybe they do? IDK), but GL definitely has its own version of this. Namely the dramatic rise in people rolling and winning gear they donāt actually need, only to then auction if off to the highest bidder for gold in the raid.
Ironically, this issue with PL you mention could be completely avoided by PLās biggest advantage over GL by far. That is, the ability to not pickup your loot from the boss and let the gear get mailed to you instead. This one critical difference put a complete stop to toxic raid drama for me. It was beautiful, and I am very sad it is gone.
Again, Iām not sure how you would go about actually proving this. In fact, I think the opposite was the case since PL was designed to give you more relevant loot than GL since GL is armour type agnostic but PL is not. The downside to this was the degenerate armour stacking with PL to gear up characters faster. Although that was an issue more for Blizzās /timeplayed metrics than it was for the playerbase.
I agree. PL still very much has a place in wow. Namely the pug world. Premades should be given the option to use GL or even ML if they wish. It would appear that only Blizz is the one dead set against ML for some reason.
The problem with loot in general is player entitlement to other peopleās loot.
Even when loot was Personal, Iād receive whispers on why I didnāt deserve a piece and why Player X needs it more.
4 Likes
No thanks. Justice badge gear was absolutely awful.
PL wouldnāt fix this though.
Considering it was removed due to being exploited in going to have to say that Blizz disagrees.
2 Likes
Pretty much this, especially pugging.
4 Likes
Yes I know. And I for one disagree with their decision. A better solution would be to do as I mentioned and simply have multiple loot rules for different situations. Somehow the playerbase was able to figure it out back in 2004 but now we gotā¦dumber?
I never said it would. PL doesnāt solve the issue of people rolling on gear for douchey reasons even if they have the right to (they donāt get a choice in the matter since PL auto-rolls for them). What it does do is avoid people being aware of the loot you did win and thus stopped a lot of the rage that would happen by people trying to go after other peopleās loot.
I always advocated for having options but a lot of the anti ML crowd basically implied LFR and pug players were too incompetent to notice what loot system was being used.
The issue is that some in the pro Pl camp think it will. Iām not saying you do. Youāre one of the more level headed people on the pro Pl side.
Whispers are going to happen no matter what.
1 Like
Yes, thatās why you take the agency out of the equation and simply enforce PL/LFR for pugs but give e.g. guild groups or mythic raid teams the option to pick whatever.
Thatās the thing though. They canāt whisper you about a drop they donāt know you got. Thatās the one critical difference and the trump card PL will always have. By having your loot go to your mailbox, you completely solved such issues.
1 Like
Thatās fair, I only have my anecdotal results. If every item had the same chance to drop, necks, rings, and cloaks would drop more frequently. That was consistent with my raidās experience as well.
But you are correct, I cannot verify that Blizzard didnāt account for the outcome that would result from using the same drop rate for these types and adjust drop rates accordingly.
Yes, this would have solved the issue I described, but would also reduce one of the benefits from personal loot in the first place. With personal loot, raid leadership could not force you to trade item level upgrades because the system truly wouldnāt let you trade it; if we remove trade restrictions then that goes away.
With that said, my points were discussing personal loot as it was, not as it could have been. The OP did not include any indication they were looking to change anything about personal loot if it were to return. The problem I outlined existed for personal loot as it worked, even if a relatively simple update to personal loot could have resolved it.
Without a doubt, and I was making no assertion that the drama under PL was worse or even on the same level as GL. Merely highlighting that it would be incorrect to claim PL did not cause any drama.
If PL were to return, I would want Blizzard to remove the message of who got what from the boss in PUGs. That way players could loot and enjoy items they won free of harassment to trade it and everyone else simply knows they didnāt get anything.
The same thing applies to my first point where I do not have actual drop rates which would play a role in the actual calculation.
With that said, if we assume that drop rates for certain types didnāt change wildly from PL to GL and my experience regarding rings/necks/cloaks was not an outlier, then across the player base with normal distribution of classes, PL would come out to be worse with distributing loot over time than GL. Trade restrictions in PL and unusable items in GL have a similar effect of burning loot. For groups where trading isnāt common, GL protections against players need rolling for items they already have will be better than PL where the game didnāt care what people were wearing when deciding who got what item.
But yes, I will concede that there are several assumptions Iām making here I cannot prove. The assumptions Iām making seem like they would make the most sense from Blizzardās perspective, but they still arenāt things I can prove. My raid has seen larger week over week item level improvements per boss kill in Dragonflight than we saw in Shadowlands, but that is a sample size of 1 which will carry the small number biases that might lead to incorrect conclusions.
ML as an option alongside GL as youāre suggesting would be good. But if Blizzard refuses to give an option, GL is the better compromise because it can be used functionally the same as ML when all raid members agree to do so without any of the loot-stealing shenanigans ML allowed (albeit rare compared to how many people complain it would happen all the time).
Sure but in the end it would only change raids and then only slightly. As people would be able to receive lower tiers of gear than the currently have but now you just wont know that the massive upgrade you wanted was actually awarded to someone who will DE it or just wants it for a transmog.
I guess at least you wonāt know it occurred, if that really makes a difference.
Want to know what the next iteration would be in that case?
An addon that whispers people who are eligible for the loot and asks āDid you get X or did you have it get sent to the mailbox and if so, check it or āinsert insult of your own choice here until you block the personāā.
Yes, Iām being facetious but hereās the point ā¦ with PL causing the behaviour you are describing, at that point it is one of the absolute STRONGEST arguments for PLās complete and utter destruction and removal. If a system in the game encourages toxicity, harassment, and more like that to the degree it did (and we know it did because this was the common way of dealing with it) then that is one of the strongest reasons for its removal for the long-term health of the game.
PL was a scourge on the game, a good change of pace for one expansion simply because it was a change that alleviated some of the issues and drama related to raid groups. But for pugging it was a scourge on the game that was worse than the Scourge. Dewlknarr put it extremely well earlier in the thread and I agree with them on all points bar one:
PL had NO long term merits for the game, except as a way to encourage people to harass folks for loot and to make some folks behave as if they are entitled to other peopleās fairly won gear.
You seem to be implying that people donāt go after other peopleās loot that they win with GL though. I mean, with GL, everyone knows what dropped and who won what, right? So whatās the logic that this somehow stops others rage whispering for loot they didnāt win?
Iām just not understanding why you would be so against the ability to hide your loot and thus avoid a situation that logically, affects both loot distribution systems.
1 Like