Lonely Gardener Model for Titans

While I was making sure to get one of every class to max level and finish the transmog sets before this raid becomes obsolete and people don’t run it anymore…I needed something to listen to on a second monitor. And so as a bit of a guilty pleasure, I was watching youtube videos on gardening. I happened upon a channel of a guy named Charles Dowding, who operates a relatively small garden using a No Dig methodology. He does most of the work himself, with two or three paid helpers, and maybe an intern that gets replaced each year from a local university. He also is very active in outreach and educating people about his No Dig method, and encouraging other people to create their own gardens. But anyway… that could all be ignored, yet the reason I bring it up is that seeing his motivations and methods and listening to him talk about the threats to his garden that he must combat very much reminds me about how I view the Titans in World of Warcraft, at least as written by Chris Metzen.

Charles Dowding faces threats like disease and blight, pests like slugs or beetles or rabbits, tragic fires, nuissance bindweeds trying to choke out everything else and claim all the sunlight/water for itself, drought at times, and the impulse for outside greedy venture capitalists that want to force him to run his farm like Bobby Kotick ran blizzard. These kinds of threats could almost be reframed as:
Void is like disease or blight
Death is like pests wanting to steal all the anima from worlds
Disorder is like a tragic fire or lava that leaves only a wasteland
Life is like nuissance bindweeds that choke everything else out
Light is like too much sun and not enough rain
Order is like a lonely gardener trying to prevent or keep out the excesses of all of the above and instead maintain the garden with hierarchy, sustainability, complexity, reliability, longevity…order.

Now, there is nothing perfect about Charles Dowding, nor the No Dig method. Nobody should be worshipping him. Does the universe morally require more tomatoes over here, and beetroot over there, and a certain number of broccoli plants? No, not really. But do I consider that garden to be “a” moral option which is better than a wasteland or a field of bindweed or a blighted and diseased dessicated hillside? Sure, I definitely think it is better, even in a moral sense.

And when there is a breakout of blight or disease, sometimes Dowding is required to keep an eye out for it, and quickly try to remove individual plants that have a blight so it doesn’t spread to the rest of the garden. Then when possible, he tries to replant seedlings of the same kind that he was preparing in his side greenhouse. From Dowding’s point of view, he is trying to grow “broccoli-kind” sufficiently in his garden…not specifically broccoli plant number 1675. If he finds that broccoli plant number 1675 has blight and needs to be removed, he does not hate that 1675 plant, nor does he hate broccoli at all. He cares for broccoli-kind and wants it to succeed and thrive. From the point of view of a gardener, the purpose of the garden is not broccoli plant number 1675; rather, broccoli plant number 1675 is put there as a method of replicating and improving broccoli-kind as a whole. Any moral judgements the gardener is applying are for broccoli-kind and not just one individual plant. When considering Algalon and the Reorigination device…very many people constantly miss the fact that Azeroth is not the only planet full of life in the great dark beyond; and so losing it to a Void disease that could wipe out all of those other planets full of life is a moral failure. You are not being morally “good” by insisting that a blighted and diseased broccoli should be left where it is to spread and kill the entire garden. Having the power and knowledge to prevent that damage, but refusing to prevent it…is a moral failure.

The greatest difference of the Garden model for morality is in realizing that unlike all the other cosmic forces…the Gardener (those pursuing order) is the only one committed to replacing and restoring any corrupted life that it needs to cut out or smother. Death doesn’t do that (ardeneald only sends back wild gods, not mortals) . Disorder doesn’t do that. Light doesn’t have any evidence of doing that. Void absolutely does not replace or restore what it destroys. Cosmic Life doesn’t even value sentient mortals…so they do not replace or restore what their Bindweed (world trees) chokes out. Only those who pursue order in the Gardener model actually concern themselves with balance and sustainability and complexity and hierarchy leading toward sentience. The Algalon assumption that is so popular on this forum, is never allowed to have the counterpoint that if there were millions of lives reoriginated, there must have also been millions of billions of lives created on planets all over the great dark beyond that would never have been there without Titan gardening effort. Millions of billions of lives at risk from the vulnerabilities of some free will self-hedonism individual being corrupted to serve as a slave to forces that want to infect and decay every mortal, or burn and turn to glass every bed of soil that could have life.

However, let me introduce some doubt about my model based on missing information. As I said, we have no evidence of Light replacing or restoring what they smite or crystallize. But could this be about us just not seeing some of their activity written about in game? One possibility, since Reorigination beams look like Holy Light, is that maybe every sentient mortal soul which gets reoriginated is cleansed and then preserved in some sort of Holy afterlife dimension where they join together as one in joy and peace and contentment and they do not suffer thereafter? If N’Zoth was not a mortal soul and outside the cycle of life and death then him being zapped with a Reorigination beam would not send him to any Holy afterlife. He would either cease to exist or maybe be sent back as a void spirit to the Void realm, whatever that means. Whereas any mortal souls on Reoriginated worlds would not be forced to go to Shadowlands ever, and never suffer eternally there. Maybe that would be why Shadowland expansion never had any souls that were from reoriginated worlds and no rumors or hints that anybody anywhere else in shadowland was from any reoriginated world.

But now back to Titans as Gardeners. I don’t think that just having a “Gardener model” is enough, because the writing for Titans in game seems to have some strong emotions and moral philosophy being employed by Titans in how they spoke to us, and how they reportedly spoke to the Dragon Aspects back when they were ascended originally. Disagree with them all you like, but they were not responding with any lack of emotion or robotic indifference. They have reasons to emotionally care about whether life thrives on planets all over the great dark beyond. So I think it necessary to add the term Lonely to the Gardener Model. I think the Titans developed their own model of morality out of an absence of knowledge about precisely how they came into existence. Meaning they are having to make guesses and looking at things that might have existed on the planets that birthed themselves but not being able to prove that there was causation between those things existing and then developing an awakened World Soul. So as far as they are concerned, it could be just coincidence that life existed on all of them, or that sentient mortals developed within that life, or that arcane magic was discovered and organized as a technology by sentient mortals on the worlds that birthed them. All those things may not be necessary or may not be ‘the cause’ of themselves awakening as World Souls… but the Titans don’t know for sure. So they might just be creating all those things on more and more worlds everywhere in the universe that they can. Just in case those are what make more World Souls to be Titans along with them. In that sense, the Titans are lonely and they want other Titans like themselves to have companionship with and to compare and contrast what they are thinking about their powers with others who share their powers. Which, to a degree, is kind of what human philosophers are doing when they notice a difference between their sentience and other animals or plants. And then they want to seek out other humans to have companionship with and to compare and contrast what they think about their own sentience and abilities. Our ethics is kind of like us trying to solve the problem of us not knowing what responsibilities we have now that we have enough powers to realize that inaction or failure to act is also a cause of moral consequences.

Titans seem like flawed heroes that do heroic things because of their flawed emotions of loneliness and ethical obligations from having power and knowledge… they want to have friends in the form of other Titans but they might have to expand and multiply life to make that happen…but since they have power to create and shape that means if they fail or refuse to act when they could protect something then the bad outcome is sort of their fault in some ways. By contrast, the First Ones have no emotions and no soul and they are doing unethical things by squeezing and causing suffering to souls to exploit and steal soul energy. The First Ones are like a greedy evil factory farm wanting as many souls to steal energy from as possible, but since they have no emotions then they don’t care about any of that suffering and have no ethics and feel no obligation to use any of their power to avoid unethical consequences for those souls based on inaction.

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The problem with utilitarian ethics, such as what you and the Titans believe, is that one can never truly know how much harm their actions will cause, and there are always unforseen variables. Even if the Titans’ policy of routinely carrying out reorigination on planets they deem to be too far corrupted, generally leads to a “lesser evil” outcome, there is no guarantee that consistently carrying out this policy won’t cause greater harm down the line.

It might lead to the Titans eventually becoming trigger happy and reoriginating planets that are not necessarily too far gone, such as Azeroth.

Nice blog, can someone summarize it? That’s far too much to read on a bathroom break.

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That is not a “problem” with ethics, that is a feature. If someone looks at what Charles Dowding does with his garden and thinks there could be unforeseen consequences, he wants that feedback. He’ll listen and try to adjust if he agrees. And he very frequently does, as he has changed many many many things about his garden since the 1970s when he began. That’s why he does outreach and goes to conferences on gardening and asks other gardeners what their solutions were, or what problems they ran into. He wants to do it better. And so do the Titans. That’s why they look for other Titan World Souls, to get feedback. Ethics is never about guarantees. We are always doing Trolley Car Problems and picking better options.

And as for Azeroth, the Titans never reoriginated it. They didn’t want to reoriginate it, and the actions of Loken and Yogg-Saron were not what the Titans wanted.

You don’t ever have to participate in this topic at all.

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I largely agree with most of what is outlined above. I find the recharacterization of Titans into Free Will hating monsters to be a bit of a childishly simplistic reduction of what had been working perfectly fine. I don’t think the setting is enriched by making Aman’thul (or Odyn, if we’re going with the whole fractal pattern thing) one dimensional dirtbags.

Where I disagree to some extent is with the First Ones. Not in that I think they are benevolent, but in that we really don’t know. We haven’t been shown that they are leeching energy out of the Cycle. It seems to me more like The Shadowlands is supposed to function as a closed loop, a sort of zero sum arrangement with souls as the currency/energy, which is why things went so bad so fast when that closed loop was interrupted.

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While I don’t know what the first ones are doing with order/void/light/life/disorder because none of that was written about sufficiently in game… what we experienced in the shadowland writing more than proves to me that the first ones were stealing energy from souls in a very unethical way. In all 4 examples with those robotic islands, even before interruption by any jailer… the status quo of those 4 zones… was unethical toward souls and showing the stealing of anima energy from those souls.

The logical leap is occurring at “First Ones are stealing anima.” So far as we’re shown, that anima is being used to sustain The Shadowlands as an ecosystem.

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I made that garden and titans anaology before, you just happenned to steal my idea.

And i mean, wasnt it obvious? It was shown with Aggramar litteraly doing that in Draenor.

Its how the titans view Life, they think Life is good and all, but it must be monitored and orodered ike a garden.

There is no logical leap… it is the bare fact. Anima is being stolen from mortal souls, full stop. End of story. That isn’t changed by your statement. If someone robs my house, it doesn’t change anything for you to say “The robber didn’t steal any money, they are using the money from your house to buy beer for their fridge.” …that’s still theft. They are still a robber.

If they just wanted to steal anima, Revendreth wouldn’t bother with the rehabilitation and Ardenweald wouldn’t recycle Wild Gods back into the Dream. They would’ve just plonked an anima collector in The Maw and been done with it.

Christ, I really don’t want to try to rationalize or defend the diarrhea party that was Shadowlands. Make up whatever facts you want about The First Ones. They’re lame Macro Titans that I hope never get addressed in the game ever again.

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I believe the First Ones are secretly sleeping inside the middle of Azeroth and shall become the primary follow-along NPCs in the post-Worldsoul Saga. We shall join them on merry adventures into the Shadowlands, realms both new and old!!!

You should know better than to say things like this when I am awake and actively subscribed, Kage.

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Wouldn’t that just be the most ultimatest wettest of farts if Beledar and the crystals were First One cocoons? Except there’s no Wilford Brimley in this Cocoon, just depression and a loss of subscribers.

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I believe A First One is sleeping in Azeroth. Likely the Earth Mother herself.

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Whispers secretly I believe Azeroth is a First One. I actually do.

… I’m not saying I like it or hate it, just that I’m sully expecting it.

You don’t know that, there could be a Beledar-like crystal with diabetus out there that we haven’t seen yet.

I mean there are only two choices here, either Azeroth is a titan(possibly the most powerful titan) or she is another type of being of equal power(which I cant think of anything else that would equal the most powerful titan other then likely a first one)

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Tuskarr Allied Race confirmed!

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I’m’a stop arguing in that other thread about Varian, because at the end of the day, I think it just boils down to the quest writer should have just said Varian started cleaning up the HoN and Anduin continued it, which I think you agreed with anyway. It’s just a dumb oversight and I’m not interested in that.

But what Azeroth might turn out to be? I’m interested in, and my crazy-brain speculation has an idea. Hold on, because I’m taking you for a ride here to tie up some dangling threads from Shadowlands to now.

What if Azeroth is a titan… But also is a First One?

We know nothing concrete about the First Ones other than they existed and did stuff (and we’re not even certain what stuff they did). It was before recorded history, they built tech, nobody else can access some of that tech. Except us, apparently. Because we’re so closely tied to Azeroth (as explicitly stated in Zereth Mortis questing).

So Azeroth is connected to the First Ones. Gotcha. Check.

We also know the First Ones are just seemingly not around anymore. Nobody has seen them, and nobody knows their fate.

We all got that, next point.

Some sources imply or state that the First Ones created the six cosmic forces, their realms, their pantheons and all that jazz. And there is enough hints within Shadowlands that there’s a mysterious seventh force out there. This force could possibly be the threat Zovaal alludes to that a cosmos divided cannot stand against.

That’s kinda weird, right? Void doesn’t need a unified cosmos to handle. Death neither. Certainly not Fel. Presumably then those other forces wouldn’t need a unified everyone to face, especially since a unified cosmos would… Also include those forces.

So. Here’s where Alynsa’s speculation gets weird.

Aman’thul thinks Azeroth is a titan, and the only beings we know of that “hatch” out of worlds are titan world souls. We know for a fact that Death Gods don’t get made that way (Zereth Mortis), and there’s no real good reason to think other cosmic gods were born from world souls and Eternal Ones are the exception. A more reasoned conclusion is that each pantheon’s “gods” have unique and different “birthing” methods. So, Azeroth is probably a titan.

But again, an unborn titan connected to the First Ones?

And how exactly was Zovaal planning to use just a titan to power First One tech to reformat the cosmos as Death? Why was Azeroth’s energies perfectly suited to that? What did Oribos have those energy lines that look like Azerite?

What if the title “First Ones” is literal, but not how we thought? What if the first Eternal One was their “First One”? Elune the life pantheon’s “First One”?

What if Azeroth is Order’s “First One”?

I know. She can’t be, because why hasn’t she hatched already? Makes no sense, Alynsa’s being crazy again.

Myths tend to repeat themselves. Uranus begats Cronus, wants to kill Cronus because he’s a threat, gets killed by Cronus. Cronus begats Zeus, wants to kill Zeus because he’s a threat. That type of thing. And we have something like that in WoW.

Sargeras sees a threat, because hyper-fixated on that threat, turns on his Pantheon. Becomes a cosmic threat on the level of the one he wanted to destroy.

Zovaal sees a threat, because hyper-fixated on that threat, turns on his Pantheon. Becomes a cosmic threat on the (presumed) level of the one he wanted to destroy.

What if this stems from the original betrayal? The “First One” of the seventh force? What if Seven sees some flaw in the Firsties’ cosmic creation and turns on his siblings, much like Sargeras and Zovaal do later?

So Seven turns on his siblings, a big cosmic battle ensues, Seven gets locked away along with his creation/the cosmic force he represents (which is why we never see this cosmic force anywhere) but at the cost of all the other First Ones except one; Azeroth, the First Titan. She is so badly wounded that she goes into a coma, attracts matter (or however the worlds form around world souls) and thus becomes our world of Azeroth.

Because it’s weird that the “Prime Titan” would just so happen to be the youngest one who hasn’t even “hatched”. You’d expect that title would go to the first titan, so Aman’thul. Prime means “of first importance, main” which is an awfully weird title for an unhatched titan. Unless that titan’s “first importance, main” comes from her being the actual first. Azeroth will be presumed to be the Last Titan as the last one left to wake up, but also the first. Again, cyclical myths.

If Azeroth and Seven are First Ones, now Zovaal’s dying words make sense. It took six First Ones to lock Seven away, and now there’s literally only Seven and Azeroth left, and Azeroth hasn’t woken up yet. To fight something on that level, we’ll need the whole of creation.

Anyway, just my whacky theory.

Azeroth = First Titan.

I know it’s almost certainly not true, but it’s my whackadoodle theory.

I’m reasonably convinced that Reality is the Seventh Force, and Azeroth is the creator that dreamed reality into being (in classic Blizzard form, I don’t think the Lovecraft and derivatives comparisons are a coincidence). Even if the whole creator/dreamer thing is off the mark, Reality = 7th seems to track, as we live in the only slice of the cosmos where all forces exist in a balanced state.

There’s also the crooked serpent with no eyes to consider, which struck me as the alluded to outside threat.

Forked tongues flicker through the black pits in dead stars

This part in particular stands out to me as indicative of it being from outside of our universe. Black holes being a tear (not really, but a popular expression) in space and snakes “seeing” (again, not really, but a popular expression) through taste. It conjures imagery of something hungry to force its way into this universe that does not belong.

Assuming they carry fractals forward as a concept, I expect we’ll see this reflected in every Outer Plane we visit, with the local deities having a wayward brother/sibling that turned on them in an attempt to head off some perceived threat.

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Fantastic post. Please repost this some other places more people need to hear this.

I have the same theory. But i feel like she wont be, she willbe something even more powerful : the ultimate being, that manage to merge all of the 7 foroces in balance, somehting even the first ones could not do.

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