Lightforged and lightbound are they the same?

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The whole idea of “Draenei forgave the Orcs then became fanatics later” contradicts established lore and would be bad writing. So every Draenei went along with Yrel without any protest or justice for the Iron Horde’s crimes?

Yrel works with Durotan in one Warlords cinematic, and pledges fellowship between her people and the Orcs in the closing cinematic.

“We will rebuild Dreaenor, together.”

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

That “Sermon of the High Exarch” left out a lot of info, so it’s an incomplete about at best. Funny you mentioned “sins of the father” since alt-Grom - the former leader of the Iron Horde - is still alive among the Mag’har despite everything he did or ordered done.

Grom turned against Gul’dan’s schemes in the end. Yrel had made her peace by the close of Warlords.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Grom only turned on Gul’dan because those schemes threatened him at that point. Gul’dan had no say over the Iron Horde’s actions until his coup after Garrosh’s death.

Everything up to that point… the crimes of the Iron Horde… all on the heads of alt-Grom and his lieutenants.

[Vyre-grobbulus]

The definition of cultural genocide is not ideological wordplay. The term genocide was first coined by the polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin. What caused him to become interested in defining a legal term for what we now call genocide was that he “noticed many historical instances of attempts to eradicate entire peoples or cultures, but there was no specific term for such acts. So he spent most of the 1930s trying to conceptualize a crime that would encompass them.” What he noticed is that these acts were unique in their motivation and scale, and that the group that carried out these crimes were themselves nation states, or in high offices within nation states, or were being carried out on behalf of an in the interests of the nation state or whoever was in the ruling party at the time. As far as what actions would be included in the legal definition, Lemkin was very broad in defining what should fall under the umbrella of genocide. To quote Lemkin,

"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.

“Genocide has two phases: one, destruction of the national pattern of the oppressed group; the other, the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressor.”

source: Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, Raphael Lemkin 1941

“Lemkin defined genocide in terms of the violation of a nation’s right to its collective existence - genocide in this sense is quite simply the destruction of a nation. Such destruction can be achieved through the ‘mass killings of all members of a nation,’ or through ‘a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups.’”

source: Australia: A Continuing Genocide?, Damien Short 2010

What we can see from these definitions and descriptions is that there is no separation or distinction between genocide carried out via mass killings, and genocide carried out through means of “cultural genocide.” Lemkin made no distinction between these two things, and considered all of these as sufficient criteria for prosecuting something as a genocide. Methods of forced assimilation, destruction of local culture, language, and national identifiers. Any of these actions were sufficient to rule something as a genocide on their own, with no need to be accompanied by mass killings.

[Tynric-moon-guard]

They are probably different types of factions of Light Draenei. One that is kind of free and is like the Draenei of our timeline and other is Zealot Lightbound Faction under a Light Hivemind Naaru.

[Poised-moon-guard]

Lightbound are not the same as Lightforged in that the Lightbound actually are a perversion of everything the Army of the Light considers their philosophy.

Lightforging, for one, is an incredibly dangerous undertaking, to the point where a second individual to help and guide the Draenei actually being Lightforged is mandatory. The implied casualty rate even then is pretty high, in the quest chain two pairs, one including the PC, go into the Forge of Aeons, but only the PC and T’paartos are ever seen again. Lightforging is a spiritual struggle ironically similar to a Demon Hunter binding a demon, except the Draenei in question is fighting their own personal demons. Brute force with the Light flat out doesn’t work, one needs to acknowledge the darkness within themselves as being part of them, and then embrace the Light in spite of it, not in absence of it. Lightforging also does not seem to erase the personality of the successful aspirant, nor wipe out their memories.

Lightbinding is erasing everything that isn’t Light, at least as far as we’ve seen. It could very well be why the Lightforged weren’t totally enraged when Xe’era tried to do so to Illidan, because in their eyes what she was doing was blasphemy.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Vyre-grobbulus

se definitions and descriptions is that there is no separation or distinction between genocide carried out via mass killings, and genocide carried out through means of “cultural genocide.” Lemkin made no distinction between these two things, and considered all of these as sufficient

In light of that information I concede that the definition of genocide isn’t limited to killing.

I still say that what the Lightbound were doing to the Mag’har was not genocide; they want them to serve the Light, they’re not trying to change their language, culture is debatable and what counts as a national identifiter?

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

In light of that information I concede that the definition of genocide isn’t limited to killing.

I still say that what the Lightbound were doing to the Mag’har was not genocide; they want them to serve the Light, they’re not trying to change their language, culture is debatable and what counts as a national identifiter?

They were going for Borg level of assimilation. They sought to turn the Mag’har into beings enslaved to the will of a Naaru, most like the AU version of the one that tried to enslave Illidan, and probably did so to Y’rel and her Draenei.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I still say that what the Lightbound were doing to the Mag’har was not genocide; they want them to serve the Light, they’re not trying to change their language, culture is debatable and what counts as a national identifiter?

It quite literally fits the definition of Cultural Genocide that Vyre provided you. The AU Lightbound are by force attempting to eradicate every other culture on Draenor to assert their own. It does not matter if some joined willingly, it matters that the alternative is having it forced upon you if you don’t. And I need to bring this up again. One of the main AU Mag’har’s leaders is currently AU Draka. And the Lightbound (as far as we know) did kill AU Durotan. What crimes did these two commit as Frostwolves to justify that? Guilt by race?

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

the Lightbound were doing to the Mag’har was not genocide; they want them to serve the Light, they’re not trying to change their language, culture is debatable and what counts as a national identifiter?

They were going for Borg level of assimilation. They sought to turn the Mag’har into beings enslaved to the

You know this “Lightforging = mind control” and “borg-level assimilation” type talk is nothing but fan theory at this point? Take a look at the lore without the “individualist vs collectivist” blinders. There is no evidence that Lightforging controls a person’s actions or changes their character.

Turalyon was Lightforged, but was able to disagree with Xe’ra while she was alive and tried to avenge her after she died, two things that wouldn’t happen if he was mind controlled (and you clearly think Xe’ra would’ve done such a thing if she could).

Yrel and the AU Draenei have plenty of reason to be sore with the AU Orcs - the Iron Horde and the genocide of the Primals… (the latter happened after the Iron Horde).

The situation around Lothraxion the “holy Nathrezim” is up in the air until further notice; he could be a Death double-agent against Light or he could’ve chosen to side with the Light against Death.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

ate every other culture on Draenor to assert their own. It does not matter if some joined willingly, it matters that the alternative is having it forced upon you if you don’t. And I need to bring

So do you have evidence of the Lightbound explicitly asking the Mag’har to give up their language, erase their history, their architecture, their clothing, their names, their art… or are you just assuming?

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Meteilssra-earthen-ring

” They just had some draenei girl who kept being in the right place at the right time, and probably never paid back that six copper to boot.

She’s still being chased by a demonic newsboy

"SIX COPPER, SIX COPPER

I WANT MY SIX COPPER"

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

You know this “Lightforging = mind control” and “borg-level assimilation” type talk is nothing but fan theory at this point? Take a look at the lore without the “individualist vs collectivist” blinders. There is no evidence that Lightforging controls a person’s actions or changes their character.

One. I was referring to LightBinding, which is what X’era attempted to do to Illidan.

Lightforging is a personal odyssey and quest that one has to seek out.

Two: Did you play the Mag’har starting quest line? Whjen you see a bunch of Light-Dominated robots that used to be people, then you see LightBinding at work.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Really? Your grudge against me is so strong you’re necro-ing a two year old+ thread? And I’m the one with the Death Knight lol

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Came up as new to me for some reason.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Suuuuuuurrrrrrrreeeee it did As for the misinformation you gave, particularly about the process Xe’ra used on Turalyon, Illidan and others…

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.cbfc5c0b63960b2454a77d96fb7464f5?rik=UTWNbFKK0oOomQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2ffsu.spoonuniversity.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2fsites%2f150%2f2015%2f12%2fThats-bait-young-sir.gif&ehk=f6KzEsbW3mNqm2UjdeZPAaDtRiVppXSKA2ml8NK98L4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

And I mentioned in my rant above. AU Draka (A Frostwolf Leader) is apparently one of the leaders of the AU Mag’har. And AU Durotan (A Frostwolf Leader) was apparently killed by the Lightbound. So … yeah, those peoples hold none of the blame for the Iron Horde, yet are suffering the 30ish year belated consequences anyway. But naw, the Lightbound are an Alliance race. They gotta be good guys.

The specific Lightbound Draenei you are referring to have nothing to do with what went down on AU Draenor as they spent the last thousand years on a Demon killing tour with Turalyon. They didn’t even come from AU Draenor but from the “original” which was destroyed by Ner’zhul’s actions.