Mostly I want to see the forums short circuit while I smugly repeat everything that Horde partisans have said to me over the past decade RE The Forsaken
Hey, Iâm a Hordie that argued that she was âfree willingâ their wills to be more convenient. But, Iâm also the one whoâs for years argued that a woman who has never cared for âher peopleâ more as people, then for them to be useful tools for her ⊠was never really bound by the mantra of âForsaken Free WIllâ to begin with. She paid lip service to it sometimes, but Sylvanas at least never really seemed to care for it. The âFree Willâ of objects and tools is ultimately irrelevant. So what do I know? 
Weâll kill the folks who were lightforging Horde in a raid or something, and then the narrative will shift to how really itâs the Alliance that are the main victims because they were betrayed by the lightforgers.
Then we can start to unironically theorycraft how the Lightforged can continue to Lightforge Orcs and Undead because Lightforged have an inherent right to proliferate
Rexxar and Drekâthar will get Lightforged by the Alliance, and after we kill the bad guys theyâll stay with the Alliance because thatâs where their people are now
Sigh ⊠look. You and I are very unlikely going to agree on the Forsaken. I donât see the need to arbitrarily have Humanity reclaim a Dead Kingdom like Lordaeron, and I do see a future for the Forsaken in the World. Just, my vision of them always required Sylvanas to finally oust herself as just using them.
That being said, my preferred method of âprocreationâ for the Forsaken is pretty low-key. Once Zovalâs influence is finally severed completely from the nearly endless masses of the Scourge, the Forsaken can and should be allowed to start exploring what minds among them can still be salvaged ⊠and what ones canât. Those that can can be nursed back to sanity, those that are too far gone can be harvested for the Forsakenâs maintenance needs. The Scourge can be a resource for them, especially if they learn something useful from the Maldraxxie (like how to fix the staples holding their souls to their bodies).
Having finally just played the Magâhar scenario Iâd have to say that the Lightbound and Yârel were pretty messed up. They wound up dessicating Draenor with the Light, dooming the planet we fought to save.
Moorcock made it plain that extreme Law is no more a friend to mortals than extreme Chaos. And the Lightbound pretty much are that trope.
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That âSermon of the High Exarchâ left out a lot of info, so itâs an incomplete about at best. Funny you mentioned âsins of the fatherâ since alt-Grom - the former leader of the Iron Horde - is still alive among the Magâhar despite everything he did or ordered done.
There were Ogres who joined Yrelâs movement because they thought it was the winning side, the Magâhar had all but wiped out the Gronn and are you really defending the parasitic Botani?
Yet, what it does reveal is horrific?
And trust me, Iâm already concerned that Blizz will pull the âGenocide is totally cool and right if an Alliance race does itâ ⊠lets not tempt them more with that. This is a group of people who went on a mass multicultural genocide of the indigenous peoples of the planet they themselves are migrants to. On the impetus of visions presented to their High Religious Authority through what seems to likely be a Prime.
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But the LB arenât going for genocide. Worst case scenarios; the Iron Horde offered the choices âjoin or dieâ for Orcs and âdie later as slaves or die nowâ for non-Orcs, while LB offered the choice âconvert or dieâ.
Plus, the Magâhar are mostly a group of locals who tried to kill or enslave migrants (the Draenei) who fled persecution (the Burning Legion) in their homeland (Argus) to start a new life. Doesnât sound better.
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A Cultural Genocide is still a Genocide. It is the systematic purging, by force, of a cultural group. Just in this case, rather than targeting their physical populations, they are eradicating their culture. So yes, they very much are committing a form of Genocide. In a very convert or die sort of way.
Also, as much as I despise what Blizz did with the Orcs in WoD, ultimately the story was just a rehash of Nerâzhul. With Garrosh taking on the role of KJ and using selective visions of the future to convince his father that if he did not invade Azeroth it would mean the enslavement and extinction of the Orcish people. The attack on the Draenei (according to the book âHellscreamâ) was merely a means to suppress them from getting in the way. Still not a good thing, but its Blizz rehashing old story beats again. Because its BlizzâŠ
And beyond that, in both the AU and MU ⊠ultimately there is a cruel reality placed upon the indigenous populations of the that planet. The very fact that the Draenei were there damned every local population to being destroyed by the Legion. Which is the reason Velen has never held what the Orcs did against them, because he is more than aware that he brought that evil to Draenor. That the totally unprepared Orcâs culture and health were exploited for a personal grudge by KJ towards Velen to eradicate the Draenei.
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Thatâs fair, I donât like the WoD story any more than you do and what the Legion did was horrific. Genocide specifically refers to killing, other definitions are ideological wordplay (not pointing fingers, just explaining the definition). Iâve also read âHellscreamâ; the Magâhar, such as Grom and the Warsong, were motivated by lust for conquest and plunder too.
The AU Orcs donât have the excuse of demonic corruption the ones in the MU did, which is better or worse, depending who you ask. The AU Orcs/Draenei arneât a colonialism/conquistadors thing, the whole AU mess started when locals became racial supremacists and tried to kill or enslave refugees without provocation.
It wasnât Velen or the Draeneiâs fault the Legion came to Draenor; the Burning Legion wanted to destroy the universe, they wouldâve come to Draenor eventually even if the Draenei never set sight or hoof there.
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A Cultural Genocide is defined as âacts and measures undertaken to destroy nationsâ or ethnic groupsâ culture through spiritual, national, and cultural destruction.â Which is exactly what the Lightbound have been doing. And the AU Draenei donât have the excuse of the Legion that apparently pushed them into a World Ending Crusade. And again, they did not just target the Orcs. Considering the races that escape with Eitrigg, and their dogma of a âunifiedâ Draenor (and beyond), their cultural purge extended to every race on Draenor. Frankly, it seems like it not for Velen the âEradarâ race is just prone to ideological and fanatical crusades. Funny how that AU works. Brings out the ugly in everyone. Also, AU Draka is a head of the AU Magâhar ⊠and AU Durotan was killed by the Lightbound. So ⊠yeah ⊠that.
And actually YES it was the Draeneiâs fault that the Legion were attracted to Draenor, because the reason the Legion was attracted to that planet was because they were being pursued by KJ due to a personal grudge. Not by Sargaras, who could have given a crap about the survivors of Argus. Which is why KJ (who promised to hunt Velen forever) was the architect of the tragedies on that MU planet. And god I hate that argument that âThe Legion Would Have Come Anywayâ. It may have been true, but Draenor was a low priority target for Sargarasâ crusade. A backwater planet with no world soul, limited Void usage, and no remaining advanced arcane civilizations to call attention to it. That entire argument boils down to the idea that the Draenei are good so its good they survived the death of their world, but the Draenor races are bad so they should have died a quiet statistic in the Eradarâs civil war on theirs.
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The issue with the Iron Horde was settled at the end of Warlords and YâRel agreed to work WITH the Orcs to heal the planet. So what happened before can not be used to justify her subsequent actions.
Somewhere along the line, YâRel, probably under the influence of the Naaru started saturating the planet with the Light well beyond any point of sanity. (The Ember Ward in Revendreth is a clear example of the outcome of such a move.) She was convinced however that the dessication of Draenor was the fault of those who refused to allow themselves to be turned into Lightbound drones.
YâRel is essentially the Light equivalent of Arthas and she was essentially leading a Light-based Scourge that would have the same results in the death of a world as Arthasâ Scourge would have done.
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And I mentioned in my rant above. AU Draka (A Frostwolf Leader) is apparently one of the leaders of the AU Magâhar. And AU Durotan (A Frostwolf Leader) was apparently killed by the Lightbound. So ⊠yeah, those peoples hold none of the blame for the Iron Horde, yet are suffering the 30ish year belated consequences anyway. But naw, the Lightbound are an Alliance race. They gotta be good guys.
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AU Goel as well. as Greya mentions the death of her brother as well as her father.
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I respect you, we just donât agree on a few things.
The definition of cultural genocide is still ideological wordplay, explaining it doesnât change that. The âThe Legion Would Have Come Anywayâ theory is correct, like it or not; the Legions plan was to destroy the universe, and I never said the Draenor races deserved to die.
And AU Draenei do have the excuses of the Iron Horde and Draenor being dangerous Death World. It was also the Magâhar who killed the Primals, and the Magâhar were already clashing with the Ogres and some chose to join the LB and anything about the Arrakoa, Saberon or Botani is nothing but fan theory at this point.
I donât see Yrelâs faction as Alliance. While Iâm open to the âAlliance as bad guys ideaâ, youâre not wrong there, one problem is every potential example of Alliance villainy is due to prior provocation from the Horde; Worgen - losing Gilneas, Night Elves - War of Thorns and the Burning of Teldrassil. If we count Yrel and the Lightbound as Alliance - thereâs the Iron Horde (the whole idea of âDraenei forgave the Orcs then became fanatics laterâ contradicts the lore and would be bad writing).
The whole idea of âDraenei forgave the Orcs then became fanatics laterâ contradicts established lore and would be bad writing. So every Draenei went along with Yrel without any protest or justice for the Iron Hordeâs crimes?
The Ember Ward happened because Light is like kyrptonite to Death⊠and lo behold, Denathrius did something there to provoke the Light first too according to Renâthal and Zârali.
Claiming the Light caused the decimation of AU Draenor is nothing but highly-unlikely fan theory at this point (more likely fan theories include it being an after-effect of all the Fel Gulâdan pumped into Taanan Jungle, Iron Horde deforestation or the deterioration of an AU timeline).
Just let Lightforging by Holy Undeath. Between it and Unholy Undeath we can have characters switch factions whenever they want. Alliance gets a character for a week, Horde gets it the next week, etc
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Not true at all.
The inventor of the word, a Jew, meant way more than only murdering. Purging a culture is according to him genozide too and it makes sense.
So many people and cultures are forgotten because of such practices and more will likley go that way.
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