Are we really not talking about this ?
Blizzard has already said no to LFR
meeting stones and innkeeper group finder was the vanilla LFR
11/06/2018 05:42 AMPosted by MatcauthonBlizzard has already said no to LFR
i didn't know it, thank you
What about flying? Can we fly?
What about transmog? can we do that?
What about barber shops? Can we change our hair?
What about achievements unlocked in classic? Will they carry over to BFA?
Please please answer my stupid questions i am a a stupid sheep with no brain baa!
What about transmog? can we do that?
What about barber shops? Can we change our hair?
What about achievements unlocked in classic? Will they carry over to BFA?
Please please answer my stupid questions i am a a stupid sheep with no brain baa!
Im happy to discuss the merits and demerits of everything. So lets go with LFR.
First some important context. This shaman exists because of LFR. More specifically, she exists because of keying. But LFR played a part in this.
I used to main a druid on EU, in 2005 i moved to japan as an ESLer. I switched to US servers. I mained a rogue on barthilas right through to the end of vanilla. After burning out on the HWL grind (the patch where they let you buy any BG gear prior to TBC dropping), i stopped playing. I returned three months after TBC release.
CAN YOU IMAGINE the nonsense a rogue faced when all the tanks (and almost all the healers) were in heroic? Can you imagine the sheer annoyance of sitting in shattrath trying to make a group (because you NEEDED those keys to progress, and couldnt leave the city because it had the widest chat channel (/2 trade) to form those groups)? You couldnt even quest. If you were making those groups, you spent HOURS of your playtime just trying to build groups. And almost always you were waiting for tanks. After a month or so, it became so tedious i leveled a resto shammy to deal with it. I mean my guild at the time were running kara with at least 5 shammys, so why not?
So there's an issue without it. DPS are going to seriously suffer. DPS without core CC skills are going to particularly suffer. Hunters can cc kite/trap, rogues can sap, frost mages can kite, mages can sheep, locks can off tank, but off specs can suck it (fury, elemental, destro, shadow). But theres an issue. LFR obviously solves that. You get the player, you figure it out.
On the flip though, this healer wouldnt exist without that pressure. I could just stay on my rogue and all the hard work i put into her, and wait... very patiently, for the group to form. Once it formed, sure i'd be playing the spec and class i wanted (or didnt want - hello trispec (15/30/5 or 5/30/15... i forget) backstabbing combat dagger rogue - sf/prep 4tw). But i wouldnt have felt that community pressure to adapt to the demands and garner a first tier raid spot in my guild. The market sort of equalises itself. Same with faction balance (pre wrath faction transfers). long !@# horde queues for bgs ==> alliance reroll which ==> faster queues, more losses in bgs (but faster (at the time) av wins. Things balance.
Community demand creates pressure to supply that demand. As soon as blizzard start interjecting with faction rerolls and crossrealm/battlegroup servers, things end up out of whack. Sure you get faster queues for your dungeons and bgs, but the cost is even fewer people willing to take on the mantle of healer or tank (or, even worse, tanking and healing made significantly easier, and more pressure placed on dps a la cata, to play right - and then blame said healers for your idiot $%^ not following mechanics ---> even easier no brain dungeon grinding, and loot pinatas in order to keep healers playing, dps still standing in bad and tanks throwing out aoe aggro).
So on balance, id say keep it all out.
(this is probably a shaggy dog story, im slightly groovy at the moment, so the point is probably all over the place, so just in case and to tldr: If the community doesnt fix something, blizzard will, and when they do, the ramifications go on and on and on to infinity. fixing x leads to problem y, and fixing y leads to issue z). In the end we get modern wow which is basically a cyclical single player game for all but the genuinely obsessed. Wow crack comes from players solving issues together. LFR is a blizz band aid to foster dungeon (and thus raid) uptake. Players ignore reality (game design being you need x-amount of cc and utility for f-boss), so everyone has a crappy experience until blizz comes in once again and 'fixes' boss f).
First some important context. This shaman exists because of LFR. More specifically, she exists because of keying. But LFR played a part in this.
I used to main a druid on EU, in 2005 i moved to japan as an ESLer. I switched to US servers. I mained a rogue on barthilas right through to the end of vanilla. After burning out on the HWL grind (the patch where they let you buy any BG gear prior to TBC dropping), i stopped playing. I returned three months after TBC release.
CAN YOU IMAGINE the nonsense a rogue faced when all the tanks (and almost all the healers) were in heroic? Can you imagine the sheer annoyance of sitting in shattrath trying to make a group (because you NEEDED those keys to progress, and couldnt leave the city because it had the widest chat channel (/2 trade) to form those groups)? You couldnt even quest. If you were making those groups, you spent HOURS of your playtime just trying to build groups. And almost always you were waiting for tanks. After a month or so, it became so tedious i leveled a resto shammy to deal with it. I mean my guild at the time were running kara with at least 5 shammys, so why not?
So there's an issue without it. DPS are going to seriously suffer. DPS without core CC skills are going to particularly suffer. Hunters can cc kite/trap, rogues can sap, frost mages can kite, mages can sheep, locks can off tank, but off specs can suck it (fury, elemental, destro, shadow). But theres an issue. LFR obviously solves that. You get the player, you figure it out.
On the flip though, this healer wouldnt exist without that pressure. I could just stay on my rogue and all the hard work i put into her, and wait... very patiently, for the group to form. Once it formed, sure i'd be playing the spec and class i wanted (or didnt want - hello trispec (15/30/5 or 5/30/15... i forget) backstabbing combat dagger rogue - sf/prep 4tw). But i wouldnt have felt that community pressure to adapt to the demands and garner a first tier raid spot in my guild. The market sort of equalises itself. Same with faction balance (pre wrath faction transfers). long !@# horde queues for bgs ==> alliance reroll which ==> faster queues, more losses in bgs (but faster (at the time) av wins. Things balance.
Community demand creates pressure to supply that demand. As soon as blizzard start interjecting with faction rerolls and crossrealm/battlegroup servers, things end up out of whack. Sure you get faster queues for your dungeons and bgs, but the cost is even fewer people willing to take on the mantle of healer or tank (or, even worse, tanking and healing made significantly easier, and more pressure placed on dps a la cata, to play right - and then blame said healers for your idiot $%^ not following mechanics ---> even easier no brain dungeon grinding, and loot pinatas in order to keep healers playing, dps still standing in bad and tanks throwing out aoe aggro).
So on balance, id say keep it all out.
(this is probably a shaggy dog story, im slightly groovy at the moment, so the point is probably all over the place, so just in case and to tldr: If the community doesnt fix something, blizzard will, and when they do, the ramifications go on and on and on to infinity. fixing x leads to problem y, and fixing y leads to issue z). In the end we get modern wow which is basically a cyclical single player game for all but the genuinely obsessed. Wow crack comes from players solving issues together. LFR is a blizz band aid to foster dungeon (and thus raid) uptake. Players ignore reality (game design being you need x-amount of cc and utility for f-boss), so everyone has a crappy experience until blizz comes in once again and 'fixes' boss f).
Negative reply
There is a price to pay for choosing to play without cc. The design of the game forces you to conform with it. That's vanilla. Nowadays it's the other way around. That is good game design for a multiplayer game that is designed around community.
It's !@#$ty that no one eventually decided to group with you, but it is what it is. And putting things into the game that encourages you not to have to rely on others is one of the big reasons why retail wow is what it is today.
It's !@#$ty that no one eventually decided to group with you, but it is what it is. And putting things into the game that encourages you not to have to rely on others is one of the big reasons why retail wow is what it is today.
lfr is more than just a group finder, its an entirely different version of the raid
it was never on the table at all, no way the team would have done that much work
it was never on the table at all, no way the team would have done that much work
11/06/2018 06:41 AMPosted by AkaichisuruThere is a price to pay for choosing to play without cc. The design of the game forces you to conform with it. That's vanilla. Nowadays it's the other way around. That is good game design for a multiplayer game that is designed around community.
It's !@#$ty that no one eventually decided to group with you, but it is what it is. And putting things into the game that encourages you not to have to rely on others is one of the big reasons why retail wow is what it is today.
If this is a reply to me, we're both in total agreement. :) Community solutions exist, and they're often way more efficient than the blizz hammer.
If there are too many dps, not enough tanks and not enough healers, those dps are going to get sick of fighting for spots and roll an in demand class. If there are too many horde and people get sick of waiting for BG queues to pop, theyre going to roll alliance. Sure, its never perfect, but it beats the crap out of blizzard fixing the solution by creating issues further down the line with factional overpopulation or dps over population thanks to battlegroups/LFR.
Every blizzard solution to a community issues leads to more fixes down the line until we end up with a game so far removed from classic wow that we start clamoring out for a new classic server in another 10 years. Lets just keep those pressures where they belong: on the individual player. You want to raid? Roll an in demand class/spec. Its seriously not broken. Its broken only when blizzard intervenes.