Thanks dude. And I also 100% agree with what you’re saying.
Blizzard has been giving people options. Mythic plus is a gearing path separate from raiding. They have a gearing path for people who do world content and you have a bunch of people complaining about that like it shouldn’t exist.
M+ already gives an overload of gear, unless they nerf that I don’t see why adding more rewards to it. I feel in pvp since gear is scaled, adding cosmetic rewards was obligatory to make the system worthwhile. As for raiding, there aren’t that much cosmetic reward, 1 mount for 1/2 of the raids. And still obtainable after.
There’s also the problem that if you put reward higher than M+15, some classes or specs will feel left out because of them not being as strong as others in dungeons.
For me the biggest problems I have with M+ is firstly the key system. It needs to be reworked to let you choose the dungeon. Secondly would be the dungeon balance, too much dungeons are the same so the same classes are always better.
m+ is the best way to get gear, adding more vendors isn’t the way to make you feel better for not getting the TF you’ve been farming for weeks
farming keys for a day will have you get more drops than any other content in the game, the problem is not getting the drop you want.
i think the only thing that needs to be done is a way to apply the RNG bonuses (ilvls, sockets) with a currency.
I think residiuum would be the best currency because currently, after having gotten a full suite of 415s and maybe a few more random pieces to round out your off set, you aren’t left with much left to buy. in my case, ive gotten all ive wanted from the vendor and am now sitting on a hoard of residiuum.
this is gonna happen to players near the middle/end of the tier and now we will sit, stockpiling our residiuum until next tier.
alternatively, we could spend it to round out our other items, buying sockets and item level.
the answer isn’t to make m+ more lucrative; it is already very very rewarding with gear; if you don’t believe me, run keys this week. you can pull half the dungeon on a 10 and finish in 15 minutes.
the only thing keys need are cosmetic rewards to make doing 15s and better more attractive. right now you’re only chasing an achievement.
It is, but it is also based entirely on luck. There are no concrete goals to work for outside of bis shopping. You hit the same dungeon 20 times and hope you get your drop…and you wait for Tuesday, hoping if you didn’t get your drop that you’ll get it in the chest. That goes on for 6 weeks? You’re not motivated anymore.
Also, you get lucky like I did with raid drops and M+ drops…and there is literally nothing left to work toward. So you roll alts or farm mats for your guild or – and this is the one that applies to OP’s suggestion most – you go farm old content for mog gear, mounts, and/or achievements.
It is THIS that OP’s rather brilliant suggestions would add to/solve.
Exactly.
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So what if it is based on luck - is that a dirty word in this game now.
The weekly caches give you guaranteed pieces and all sorts of gear drops in there.
But if raids, M+, and elite pvp is all there is and the only way to get any sort of gear at all, that’s pretty much kicking the majority of players out the door. And I don’t think at this point there’d be enough left to make it worth keeping the doors open.
I’m not saying that those 3 should be the only ways to get gear in the game. I’m just putting forward a suggestion that adds depth in the gear acquisition through each tier/season within all of these aspects of the game.
Right now I feel that the game is trying so hard to cater to everyone that it has mellowed out the overall experience and stops cool ideas out of fear that players will hate it.
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Good point. Personally I didn’t iron out the whole part about nerfing gear drops in M+ on purpose because I wanted to see what people had to say about something like that. And I personally believe cosmetics is a requirement upon putting in a template.
Overall the idea was to try and create a form of incentive to push higher keys since just doing a +10 gets you your weekly chest. I thought it was a cool idea to add an artifact skin behind clearing Keystone Master.
Again, I agree this could very well be a legit problem. Class and spec representation right now is kind of all over the place for M+. It would definitely take some kind of tuning, balancing, and maybe even rehauling a few classes to help them out in clearing keys properly.
The cosmetic reward system that I laid out wasn’t meant to be concrete but to put in place how it could work per milestone.
I think this one would be a bit shaky since people seem to gravitate towards whichever one is the easiest and farm it. Like Maw of Souls in Legion for AP farming. Would definitely take some balancing work there.
Appreciate the well thought out response though. You laid out some good points.
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Now this is an interesting idea. I was actually thinking that sockets could be a profession thing though.
This whole argument baffles me - are raids not fun enough for people to play if M+ got better? Maybe true… but that means more that the raid model needs to die, not that it needs to be preserved.
And nobody argues that M+25 is easier than mythic raiding… so why isn’t the best reward in the game for the hardest content?
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It’s more that m+ is way easier to coordinate and assemble than a raid group, the difficulty of M+ vs raiding isn’t comparable at all. It’s like comparing assembling an hamburger for 5 people vs making a 7 meal service for 20. So even if mathematicly mobs can hit harder in m+, that doesn’t make it the “hardest” pve content.
There’s also the fact that raiders will mostly farm M+ the mythic raid week because it’s the easiest and fastest way to get gear, not because they “like it”. The infinite loot reward is the main attraction of m+, unless you nerf that I don’t see why adding more rewards is necessary, moreover in a titanforged system.
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For me it’s the difference between having to organize 20 people opposed to 5. For me personally I can say for sure that if we were able to cut down mythic raids to 10 people I could easily put together a group of people that I know are competent and would be able to clear raids in a much better pace. But because there’s more people that means there’s more room for error and far more variables where things can go wrong.
Whether or not it’s harder is a matter of perspective. But within their own worlds clearing high keys is the hardest content for M+ while Mythic is the hardest content for raiding.
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This. M+ is a different beast entirely than raiding. My shaman is a machine in raids, but I have to spec differently and work differently in M+, and Resto shammy has limitations that can make M+ frustrating, even for good players.
My role in a raid is different than my role as a solo healer in 5-mans. I’m not generally called upon to be an interrupt, stun, and purge machine in raids to anything approaching the same level as my role in those jobs during 5-mans. The two don’t resemble one another, and “difficulty” is subjective.
On my resto druid, M+ is cake, and I can perform better as a healer in less gear than my shammy can. On the other hand, the druid has less utility to offer in M+.
I don’t understand the need to compare apples to tram cars.
I play in raids and I play in M+ dungeons. They don’t compete for my affections. I like them both. That said, raiding requires that 10-20 people show up on a predictable schedule whereas dungeons allow me to just drop into one on a whim with LFG, and I can run them over and over and over again as long as somebody out there has a key.
Well yes, but actually no…
Mythic+ as it is grants too much gear, monday I hit 120, thursday I’m 400-405, takes just about 20-30 mythic+ runs, spammable, no weekly cooldown, no daily one either. In my opinion mythic+ should scale higher to 11-20 with gear ilvl, +10 gets pretty easy once you get grip of it, and anything beyond is just ehh, no rewards.
They should have put versions of all item slots in place for the vendor. Be able to buy not just Azerite, but cloaks, rings, trinkets, weapons, boots, pants, wrists, gauntlets, belts, etc.
Make anything that is available through WQs, weekly world bosses, and M+ (anything not from the current raid tier) available from collecting Titan Residuum with enough of it.
Give players options and a way to help get away from the pain of what is basically at this point wholly RNG layered over RNG gearing with no way to help yourselves because Master Loot is gone and we don’t have EPGP any more.
Leave the current raid tier as is, with that the only place you can pick up the gear as it’s usually the best for what you need it for there. But give players a break and let them catch up slots, not just Azerite, that crappy Personal Loot Only RNG has screwed them over on with the a vendor & Residuum.
Well there is no choice but to considering both give gear that are used for both. Aka - if raid is the best gear, then if you only wanted to M+ you would still be compelled to raid; and vica-versa. You are basically punishing M+ for the sake of raid gear right now, which means raiding is technically “more important” than raiding in Bliz’s mind.
My point is - that’s old school and Bliz is missing the opportunity to lead a new wave of MMO play where M+ could be on an entire new plane of existence in the gaming space.
Comparing the gear makes sense, of course, but I mean the constant argument we see in forums over “which is harder.”
M+ and Raids each have their challenges, and both can be easy at low levels and extremely difficult at the high end. Aside from that, the constant need people have to literally get upset with one another over which one is better/harder/stronger makes me crazy.
They’re different. They’re both awesome. They’re both difficult at the higher levels. Apples and tram cars. Life is better with apples, and it’s better with tram cars. Other than that, they have little in common.