So, I see people rampaging about Classic Cataclysm all the time, and some of it I get, but I’m curious about the specifics here. For me personally I love cataclysm, I think there are definitely massive flaws to be addressed if it gets rereleased. For example, something like a chromie system to let you choose the old world or new, changing Chaos orbs to be tradeable (but still only lootable by people with professions) from the start, LFR being a real kick in the nuts for raiders, and other things like that. Other than that I am legitimately curious about peoples dislike for it. Don’t want to see this devolve into a “It’s bad and you’re wrong if you don’t think so thread”, so please serious, in depth responses only.
To start it off, the things I love about Cata were mainly the PvP felt very rewarding and fun, things exploded around you and you got wrecked as well. While arena was a bit of a mess, battleground were fantastic imo. It was fast paced, you felt like you hit hard, but also couldn’t go running into an army alone and take 0 damage.
Raids were absolutely a joy to take part in, I wasn’t personally the biggest fan of dragon soul, however BWD/ToT4W/firelands remain some of my favorite raids to this day. The al’akir fight is definitely a highlight to make you feel like you’re really going against a king of elements.
Leveling become much more fun, mainly because classes got a ton of new tools with their old abilities, instead of feeling overloaded with new abilities like later expansions. Blood and thunder warriors, getting felguard early for locks, healers not really running out of mana instantly while leveling.
The only exception to the overloaded with new abilities being healers, but I felt like it did healers a great service, pallies finally get aoe healing capabilities, druids HoT feel more complete and things like that.
To top all that off, I absolutely love dungeons in cataclysm, especially heroics. I remember fondly having pugs in almost full raid gear that still couldn’t do grim batols bosses outside of thro’gar (the 3rd dude) because they were inept. It made it both frustrating when you couldn’t complete it, and extremely rewarding when you could.
I fully recognize the expansion had many flaws, and would love to see them work it out, But ever since the Cataclysm Survey became public knowledge I see people trash talking it constantly, so I’m curious peoples actual feelings on the matter and why. Please let me know, I look forward to the discussion and differing viewpoints!
Edit: I forgot tol’barad, the single greatest pvp area blizzard ever made.
Cataclysm for me was an end of an era and saw a lot of radical shifts for me. Some good, some bad. I’m more of a fan of the original trilogy than Cataclysm, but there’s something profound in a world you’re familiar with being changed to the point of no return. Some places you just can’t go back to, and I guess the old world was one of those things (at least before Classic).
Starting with the good, the revamp of the old quests into the newer were great. Quests became far more memorable and zones had new life breathed into them. I still love the EPL, Badlands, and Thousand Needles quests and I can still recite what happens in each zone’s story. Multiple zones had quests that felt like they were on the same level as the best quests in Vanilla through Wrath. We needed quests to be revamped and Blizzard delivered.
The bad though… loss of the old world sucked, the talent system felt more restrictive even when we still had ‘trees’, and the overarching plot paled in comparison to what came before. Deathwing was an okay villain but he didn’t have nearly the same love as Arthas had for himself.
The rise of difficulty in the baseline was fun with the right sort of people, but pugging/using LFD? It made running dungeons MISERABLE outside of your guildmates. Healing was already a pretty thankless role going into Cata, but triage healing and players outright refusing to be vigilant about mechanics they could employ to avoid damage made it even worse.
As for the raids, they were… okay. T11 was an INCREDIBLE tier to kick things off with, but everything else kind of just…petered out. I still lament not getting the Abyssal Maw raid and always wonder about what could have been.
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Now, as for should there be a Cata Classic? Well… I probably won’t play it. Should it be allow to exist at all though? A few days ago once I got out of my first runs of heroics in Wrath, I had the most nostalgic moment sitting back in Dalaran and just taking in the world. Wrath was the game that really got me hooked, and being able to relive a recreation of it has been phenomenal. I didn’t realize just how much I missed it.
So if someone has those same feelings of nostalgia towards Cataclysm, I wouldn’t want to rob them of that.
For specifics, people look at Pandaria, which lost far more players and was far less liked at the time with weird rose colored glasses and jump on the Cata hate train despite the fact that it ended with about 40% more players than Pandaria did. Cata had the misfortune of following Wrath which was the peak. The player count had dropped by over a million before the Cata prepatch as a significant amount of players felt the Warcraft story was complete with the fall of Arthas.
I look forward to Cata because the zones were pretty amazing, the quests were enjoyable and the Firelands raid and daily area is some of my favorite content in the game.
Interesting take on the matter! I saw a lot in your post that i agree with, which is one of the reasons I’d be very open to changes if they rereleased Cata. In general I hugely agree with the statement about talents. It became very cookie cutter between leveling and raiding, mainly because the good talents were great, which left a lot out in a terrible place.
The one section i kind if disagree with, mainly because of how i prefer playing the game (and always heal) is the dungeon section. They were punishing, and it made healing with people that refused to dodge mechanics brutal, but on the reverse end of that, it incentivized working together with friends more. And it rewarded it more as well with the guild leveling system, more guild xp for more members in the group. As a healer, cata is probably my favorite healing expansion, so many tools, and unlike a good portion of my time in wotlk content so far, i had to actually pay attention.
Im curious your thoughts on allowing a switch between old and new world with something like the current Chromie system in retail? I think thatd be a good way to retain a decent number of players, because the biggest complaint i generally see is it “destroyed” the classic world.
Having a group that actually cooperates with you made the dungeons great. The troll heroics were awesome if people knew what they were doing, but I felt even that point in the game, you had players who were adamant about treating most fights like late-Wrath tank and spanks and raging at the healer for not keeping them topped up at 100% HP, which was a surefire way to OOM back then. Having more tools was great (especially as a holy paladin), but the way pugs acted back then really tanked Cata for me. Still, that’s just me. I’m sure there are plenty others who had a great time.
As for a thought of allowing a switch between old and new world, I wouldn’t really mind it. I’m hoping we get something akin to like Wrath+ or something, or at least dedicated Wrath servers. They did my TBC fan friends dirty :<
cataclysm content wasn’t bad, it was just more so a guild killer when they went to equalizing 10 & 25 man gear, so it wasn’t a fond memory for me the first time around. That paired with the level of changes creeping into wotlk, which in turn leads me to speculate they will meddle with cataclysm too, makes me very disinterested in continuing down nostalgia path. Too many bugs not being addressed, too many unintended consequences of design changes, too few people to manage the classic franchise and do it justice. I’ve gotten loads of happiness from reliving wotlk again, but the lack of general support and give a crap from the staff is exponentially lower than it was originally which is wearing quickly on my nostalgic happiness.
Honestly, playing back through classic, I don’t really mind Cata all that much. The real big thing that was bad about it was the Dragon’s Soul raid, that was a real massive disappointment. Profession farming was also a big meh from what I remember playing back in the day.
most people here will probably advocate for cataclysm (because most people here are retail kiddies at heart), but naw, easy unsub if they go that route without any other alternative
hate:
crz
lfr
flying everywhere
no content endgame other than soloing stuff and city afking while you raidlog/sit in queues
worgen cringe race + goblins should have been neutral
awful class balance/design relative to wotlk
archeology was a slog
professions were much less impactful than wotlk and even tbc (lol)
transmog ruins the identity of players’ progression and causes an incohesive art style with time
botched narrative/aborted raids
rushed lvling experience
guild achievements disfavored smaller guilds
dragon soul + other later introduced dungeons were absolutely awful
Now, this is all subjective, as all aspects of game design preferences are, but I’m certainly not the demographic intended to ‘appreciate’ the above aspects, and many others feel the same way. I liked rated BG’s, that’s it.
Sure some people have some fond experiences, but that can said of every expansion. There’s people out there who probably have nostalgia for WOD. This shouldn’t be the primary deciding factor.
I agree DS was a letdown, huge misbalances between bosses, some were insanely fun, while others felt like they should be in classic molten core. It really would need a lot of tweaks to be on par with the other raids in the expansion.
As for the profession thing, i fully agree there, however the big cause of that at the start was needing chaos orbs (2 or 3) to craft everything. And chaos orbs only dropped from the last boss of heroic dungeons, they were BOP until firelands released, and could be rolled on by anyone with a profession above 450 that used them in crafting. making it super grindy if you werent lucky. Could take you 3 runs to craft and epic, or 20.
To the guy that mentioned changes, i am skeptical about it as well, but i also am torn because i think with a few tweaks cata could be one of the best expansions. So I’d like to see changes, but i worry about the changes they would make. For example, instead of changing chaos orbs, if they just nerfed dungeons into the ground to make farming them more accessible.
Cata in 2022, is almost an objectively superior product to WotLK is in 2022. In some ways, its the prime era of the game to revisit.
Assuming they dont go the lazy random-late-patch route, it will be fascinating to see how players today handle what where very challenging dungeons at the time. Being part of RDF was a big part of the challenge, but even with organized groups, early cata content was downright brutal in its tuning.
Something else of intrigue would be the possible implementation of the “missing” raid tier. Something that really drags Catas perception down was the whole “sorry, no raid, heres ZG and ZF as dungeons, also Firelands for only a couple of months” broken patch cycle.
Could we get a small “Water” themed raid like we were supposed to? (i highly doubt it)
Firelands for a reasonable period of time, a great raid that not enough people got to experience?
Will Dragon Soul be received better without LFR tarnishing it if they chose to not implement it? (People will realize Morchok, Volleyball, Paint with Slime and Ultrax where pretty fun bosses, the rest pfffft)
Oh, and PvP felt like it reached tha apex of its balance.
I see Cata as the antithesis of WotLK. If Wrath is a dated nostalgia trip that hasnt aged well, Cata might be that food you never cared to try that your tastebuds have surpsingly taken a liking to in 2022.
Im not saying it is without flaw, or that it was the best expansion to be released.
But within our current gaming culture, the prospect of giving Cata another go feels like revisiting somewhat of a mysterious era shrouded in what-ifs opposed to revisting Wrath, which I unfortunately feels like playing through your favorite childhood game only to realize “this hasnt aged well, and i dont remember it being so easy”.
Im sure some folks genuinely enjoy the Wrath era the most, and thats totally fine. I think a lot of are going to realize that it being many players first experience + Arthas…is why they view it with such esteem.
Ulduars great, Class design took a step forward, ICC is…decent and it feels like that where the positives end with wrath if one is honest with themselves. The open world is a joke, dailys rule the day, dungeon content blows and two of the four raid tiers are a disaster.
PvPs…a sidegrade to tBC imo. Most classes feel better, Arena comps are even more static.
I think wrath could have aged well, but the lackluster support, addressing of issues, and generally awful server management really soured the experience for a lot of players. Cata might be a decent go around, my opinion was rather jaded the first time as the raid size really blew up most guilds on my server that were any good, so my pve experience was mediocre, I do remember good content in general though.
Alright I’m gonna unpack this one, because this is the kind of post Ive been waiting for, a lot of this is things that get a lot of hate for Cata, but also very misguided imo. So I’m going down the list.
CRZ, for the most part agree with this. However, this was added in MOP not Cata, so irrelevant unless they decide to add it themselves.
Lfr i already mentioned as a downside, if they kept it out of the game (or made MASSIVE changes to it) id be very happy. But it was also only added at the very end for the DS raid.
Flying everywere is an interesting one, personally i feel the redesigned world was built around flying as an open world mechanic, but i also get the fact that it killed off a lot of the feeling of being around other people. You still see them, but it is certainly much less common, and much more just a fly-by, would be interested in a solution to this, but i think with the new zones added flying is a requirement (cant get to any t11 raid without it).
The raidlog one is the only part i vehemently disagree with, i feel like cata went a long way to fixing the raidlogging issue. You had Tol barad, arena, rated BGs, normal bgs, mounts all over the place to collect, the new darkmoon faire, professions, actual interesting dungeons that were still a challenge in gear. Also since leveling was streamlined, having more alts to do all of this on as well.
Worgen/goblin are personal opinions and never played them, sooo… skip.
Hearitly disagree with the class balance, but I hope you respond and go more in depth with that one, i would agree with cookie cutter clssses, but balance not really, every class was in a pretty good spot in cata power wise.
Archeology… no objections, continue tearing it down.
The professions one is also just not really right, at least pre DS. Every class has BiS pieces from crafting pre heroic raid gear. If i remember correctly, assassination rogues have bis chest, cloak, and belt from crafting. Professions became a hugely impactful thing (for most classes) although it was fairly grindy…
Transmog i never really used, but always felt like for the most part the new tiers looked cool so didnt effect me, I’ll pass on that one as well. Although you did remind me of reforging, one of the single greatest things blizzard released imo. Not important for casuals, but amazing for min max focused players.
Botched narrative, i can see that, the core story following thrall was… not great. But i also think it had a lot of really really cool side stories working with the thrall one. Uldum was also a highlight for me on the story front. Thats another one i do agree can be a turn off though, really no counter point to it if you are playing the expansion for the story.
Gonna do the last 2 together because this is getting a bit long. Raids/dungeons, and guild leveling. So, the dungeons, in general disagree, can’t think of a single bad one in the entire expansion, the only one i really had issue with was the end times… because the bosses in it were random, so getting gear you need could be rough. But they were interesting enough dungeons imo. Basically took the ICC dungeon style and ran with it but more difficult. As i said previously though DS is i think the biggest PvE blemish on cataclysm. Definitely would need reworking to be on par with the rest. And with that we come to guild leveling and achievement. This one is always misremembered, but if you go back and actually look at the numbers, a guild with 10 active players can accomplish pretty much everything in a timely manner. Daily capping xp through dungeons and quests is very easy. And the achievements usually have 2 versions, 1 focused towards 25 man guilds and one focused towards 10. The feast and cauldron can be a real pain to get, but if youre raiding weekly and making your own flasks/food instead of buying them, youll get there pretty quickly naturally. Those are the only really important game changing achievements that i remember.
Looking forward to your response! Anything you feel i misrepresented or that you disagree with let me know. Ive always felt cataclysm gets a bad rep simply for being after the most loved expansion, and overtime the hate has grown more into a meme than genuine dislike, so im hoping to get some real insights back!
P.s. dont have nostalgia for wod, but damn the raids were great
The removal of the old world and the pruning of class abilities / talent tree is what makes cataclysm so bad for me, I do like the changes to healers and the difficulty of heroics though and the first raid tier was really fun.
Wrath will kill classic, just give it time, Wrath was riding the wave of vanilla and TBC and started to decline before Cata released, Cata was just more wrath the fact people don’t see that is beyond me.
Nah the reasons people had issues with WotLK was welfare epics, Naxx being laughably easy, and running ToGC too many times a week.
People expect the welfare epics and Naxx being easy is inevtiable, but fixing Ulduar item levels / removing ToGC multi week runs will be huge in making wotlk less awful as the expansion progresses.
