Leaders meeting at icecrown spoilers

Since you brought it up, I don’t even think Voss is a complete character either. She has the beginning and ending parts of a believable arc, but the game never actually showed her reconciling with herself and joining the forsaken. It’s just one instance she’s a separate agent, and then the next she’s part of the group and you just have to take her word for it.

Calia’s “healing” is another potential thing I’m not looking forward to. I can only imagine it going one of two ways. Either she somehow “cures” their mental damage with the light, or just therapy is enough to help them. Either way, it makes the entire forsaken faction look like a group of complete idiots for going ~15 years without having ever thought of it until Calia graciously gifted herself to them.

The whole thing is just irredeemable trash to me. :man_shrugging:

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As I said on another thread, it’s like making Edward Cullen the king of all vampires.

I never even wanted to see her do that. I liked the fact that there was a rogue independent undead out there. Not everything or everyone has to be folded neatly into one faction or the other. Makes the world seem bigger, more than removing portals ever could.

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No I think now with BFA it’s clear she clearly despises being Forsaken but has come to terms with it inasmuch she has and desires solidarity and community among the undead. That much is evident both with the Zelling plot but also with the Calia plot.

I really don’t think this is what’s going to happen. I think it’s far more likely that the extent of Calia’s magical light powers be used purely to reclaim Undercity and purge it of the Plague.

I think the future of the Forsaken, as well as Calia’s rendered “more Forsaken” could be done via:

  1. during Shadowlands, the Necrolords develop particular relations with the Forsaken to help them survive and endure, using “true necromancy” to perfect their undeath. This option is very likely I think, as the Night Fae are being set up as a way to help the Night Elves deal with their plot.
  2. Far less likely, but Calia’s being “Light Raised” also means she has the possibility of being Shadow/Void alligned, which would allow her to be a “Dark Lady”, and allow the Cult of Forgotten Shadow to be re-centered in the Forsaken. Let the Light abandon her, and let Natalie Seline be a Forsaken character.

I decided to elaborate more on the subject of Horde representation.

The meeting on the Icecrown and showing mostly elves and human with token troll upset me because it just isn’t what Horde is supposed to be.
Horde’s theme should be tribalistic, focused on warrior pride and many more. I know that Horde is meant to grow and they got new members and such, but the core of the Horde should’ve been maintained.

The proud monster faction is what lured many people into it.
I don’t play Horde to be Alliance imitation.
I play the Horde because it is giving us a different theme than Alliance does.

And It’s even more frustrating that the narrative is showing that savagery/ tribalism is bad and totally backwards and we should capitalize on European kingdom themes to make Horde appealing instead of having deep dive in what makes Warrior factions with tough fighters and people who embrace primal energies with actual dignity and pride. And this is why I dislike Baine so much - he is not capitalizing on Tauren culture at all besides mentioning Earth Mother couple of times, there is zero insight on how tauren work, think and fight because his entire character is reduced to be Anduin’s BFF and it is the highlight of this character. Not his personal aims, the direction where he would like to lead the Tauren, or even defending his people from Alliance aggression. He is the good guy because he agrees with the other good guy on opposing faction.

Barbarians were written in dignified way in other franchises, and the best example I can think of is Tarnum from Heroes of Might and Magic Chronicles. The way he described the barbarian society, and mindset gave them lots of justice and made them look really cool when compared to other “civilized” nations, heck the mages of Bracada despite having all the perks for “high civilization” could still appear lame and even pathetic to Barbarians in terms of approach to various things and attitude.

Here is the example how cool the “warrior theme” feels :

I remember when we first encountered the tauren. I remember Cairne Bloodhoof’s deep voice and calm face. I remember sitting on the ground in a tent that could be broken down and erected with startling speed, and feeling oddly at home. We smoked pipes, shared food and drink, felt the drumming in our bones, and talked. The tauren seemed to me bestial at first, but there was wisdom and humor in them, and by the time the first round of negotiations had been conducted, I knew that the orcs had a rare ally in these half-bovine beings.

Night had fallen while we spoke, a soft night befitting this beautiful land. We left the tent and gazed up at stars too numerous too count, a sweet wind caressing our faces. I turned to Drek’Thar, to ask for his wisdom. To my astonishment I saw tears on his face, glinting in the moon’s light.

“This is how we used to be, my chieftain,” he said in a broken voice. He lifted his arms and tilted his head back, calling the wind to embrace him and dry the tears on his strong green face.

Close to the earth. Close to the spirits. Strong in the hunt, gentle with the younglings, knowing our place in the world to be right and just. Understanding the balance of taking and giving. The only magic the tauren practice is the good, clean magic of the earth, and the land reflects that, the way Draenor once reflected our connection*.”

I thought of the tauren’s request for aid in fighting their enemy, the vile, filthy centaur.

“Yes … I feel for them. It will be good to be able to help them,” I said.

Drek’Thar laughed, turning his blind eyes to me and seeing me more clearly than anyone with sight could.

“Oh, my young Thrall,” he said, chuckling still, “you do not yet understand. They will help us.”

The worst thing is that Devs seems to know that this is the theme that they should strive for, and the Warfront music is the example of it :

this is the theme that in a music sais " This world gives us nothing, it is our lot to suffer and our duty to fight back".

And instead, we have elves who sip wine and read poetry and undead human that is all about light worship. And they wouldn’t be bad as just some addition, but I will strongly oppose them as people who should be Horde’s figureheads. They should never take over the tribal feel of the Horde. And this is why the Icecrown gathering is so depressing.

Among the group, there is only one person who was truly thematic to the Horde and he didn’t even have a speaking role.

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Withholding my snarky comment, the forsaken were more or less a cult under Sylvanas. At the very least, several of them followed her philosophy.

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Blizzard just doesn’t want to write Noble Savage, doesn’t want to write a story where Tradition/Heritage is fundamental and central. Blizzard’s writers have doubled down since Cata-MoP that “Traditionalism is bad”, and thus the Horde was neutered.

Even the High-turned-Blood Elves are functionally “Noble Savage”. They are viewed as monsters by the rest of their elves, even though technically they are the “original”/Traditional Elven culture.

Instead we get a story where everytime it’s WARchief Bad + Rest Of Horde Loves Alliance We Are Best Friends Forever Peace And Love!

In my honest opinion, the Horde should have been uniquely equipped to deal with Shadowlands. The Horde as a faction has the most races with deep, DEEP lore on Death and the Shadowlands:

  • Orcish Shamanism + Shadowmoon Clan practices
  • Troll Shamanism + thousands upon thousands of years of dealing with Bwonsamdi
  • Tauren Shamanism + multiple practices that involve them traveling literally into the Shadowlands
  • The Forsaken are LITERALLY UNDEAD and have been researching Necromancy and the like for their entire history
  • Hell, even the Blood Elves since their introduction have been “investigating” Scourge magic to help deal with the Dreadscar/Ghostlands, as well as building upon thousands of years of magical research that we know periodically involved forbidden magic like necromancy/death stuff

Instead we are being presented with everyone being equally blind going into the Shadowlands precisely because we as Horde have been written as letting go of these varied Traditions within the game narrative.

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Man, after realizing this VERY important stuff -no seriously-, how can you come and say then than Calia (yes, the european inspired disney princess with 0 thematic similarity with all of those Horde undead themes) is a perfect addition; specially in the position she´s being added -A.K.A. a replacement of themes-).

Before the Storm would love to have a word with you, cause you just need to read that to see how she´s gonna replace… I mean, “heal” the Forsaken.

You delude yourself if you believe Calia is gonna be anything but a hard retconn button to show that only Alliance flavored undead are good and can “belong” into the game.

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It’s precisely because she doesn’t have the range that will allow her to be used as a mechanism to reintroduce and provide multiple centers.

We’ve been discussing this in various threads now but the best solution would be for Calia to be “primary leader”, and have her admit she doesn’t know what she’s doing, and have a Council help her along of Lilian, Velonara, and Delaryn.

Velonara is still there, and Lilian is the main one helping train Calia, and thus both are unlikely to disappear. And Delaryn went off with Calia to somewhere too, so one can assume all four are doing something with eachother.

Only person we’ve seen Calia heal is Derek. He doesn’t look any different. He’s still raised by dark magic.

Calia’s healing so far has been a pep talk lol.

I don’t think she’s going to replace all the Forsaken with light infused ones.

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Ah yes, the ancient and holy magics of “Cheerleading” and “Therapy”

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Be realistic, dude. How much do Rommath and Halduron “help” Lor´themar in the ruling stuff? And he basically was “Calia” for the Belves when Kael´thas suddenly saddled him with reprsenting him in Azeroth.

She won´t be used as anything but the very obvious and very basic A.K.A. to retconn the Forsaken to hell and back. Devs simply won´t expend time nor resources (heck, they could have ALREADY donde so. She could had been a reglar Forsaken, but no, sje literally HAS TO BE Alliance raised light undead angel. She didn´t HAD to be -heck, the ideal scenario would had been she having NOTHING to do with Anduin and all to do with the Forsaken and Horde players she´s gonna be imposed into; but no, devs deliberately constructed her as a light infused monstruosity that basically acts like a female Anduin and with the finesse of a female Baine-.

Wanna bet? Cause Tauren post Cata say Hi, Dwarves post WotLÑK say Hi, and so on…

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Derek literally had 5 seconds of “undead torture”… not the years the regular Forsaken cast had. And certainly not with the aggravants that was being too a former cannon fodder Scourge.

And you don´t see anything wrong with a narrative that literally heals trauma with ONE pep talk? Can we even name that “trauma” in the first place?

Ty for proving my point. She basically makes them all goodie goddie by proxy of saying hello to them, not by proxy of making them analyze themselves. 200% trash tier writting.

Unfortunately for you guys, some of us do like narrative tools that are better than the blatant whitewashing used for tales designed by kids between the 2 - 5 yo age range.

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I wonder if people would be reacting differently if they’d gone along with the original plan and made a new character to be holy zombie therapist.

Yes and no.
Yes, because there is no “claim” to the throne.
Perhaps if the new character was developed well and in game so players could see the story.
No, it’s a light zombie and the way this has to come about is urgh… no.
No for the way the butchered Sylvanas.

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Worked on Saurfang when Anduin did it.

:cactus:

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And how well received that was, again?

Cause as far as I remember, people latched onto it just because they naively believed this made less evident the brutal villain batting Sylvanas and the Horde got courtesy from Afriasiabi et al… not because people were happy to see Sadfang degenerate into an archbishop for the Church of Wrynn and Human Potential.

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Not well at all (at least by most Horde I’ve seen posting on the forums. A TON of Alliance posters liked it though. Odd that some of those same posters support Calia as Forsaken leader). It turned an awesome character into a pathetic wreck.

:cactus:

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Thanks Withpuppys, /headpat

Is it sad I’m sort of hoping Aggra was offed somewhere offscreen so this 'ship can happen? >_> Not gonna lie, Thrall X Jaina is my warcraft guilty pleasure 'ship, and the fact that Terran and Madeleine are fanboying/girling over that ‘Jaina caresses Thrall’s bicep’ moment is making me giggle.

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Why?

The Forsaken are being let off the hook here. The entire Horde, really, is being let off the hook. Calia is joining with the Horde. Not just with the Horde, but the Forsaken in general. Who have been torturing people, raising people into undeath (something they claim to hate) and following Sylvanas for years and years.

And she joins them. And yes, an argument can be made she’s doing it to “reform” the Forsaken, but why should Tyrande care? Why should Tyrande give Calia the benefit of the doubt? The Horde, all of it, every one who didn’t stand up and Mok’Gora Sylvanas is guilty.

The council of the Horde is guilty. The Forsaken of the Horde are guilty. And if Calia joins them, then she is guilty as well.

I’m really quite shocked that everyone seems to be saying Tyrande is unreasonable. She’s the only one who’s made any sense in BFA, and now in Shadowlands.

There isn’t any reason for peace with the Horde. The Horde as a faction are a bunch of irredeemable monsters, and the upcoming book excerpts, thus far, only reinforce that.

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