Something is not adding up. Not in tune with Prot atm so won’t comment on that but both Fury and Arms need some further revision. The fury apex talent change is perplexing and already a pain point.
For Arms literally nothing was streamlined outside of Thunderous Roar being removed…. its just not adding up. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t want an over simplification but there is a lot of opportunity to streamline things while still retaining the existing rotational abilities.
Just look at the latest round of Rogue changes namely sub and especially the last round and look at how much iteration the spec has received the changes are fantastic for Sub (outside of the removal of Rupture which is blasphemous and should be immediately returned!)
Avatar and Ravager were initially removed, but then later added back for no apparent reason.
Avatar would exist fine on a choice node with Bladestorm (and regaining its root removal), but Ravager needs to either be made passive or just go away entirely.
Fury Apex is worse than its original version. They need to just decide whether it’s meant to be a full-uptime effect and make it actually easy to maintain, or whether it’s a short bursty effect that’s just tied to Reck duration without any gimmicky extension.
The auto-attack stuff is whatever. They overshot this balance pass, but it’ll get tuned out in time.
I just feel like there was so much missed opportunity for Arms.
Core Rotational Loop Woes
Right now when you are getting OP/MS procs and are not rage starved the rotation feels fluid
Cooldowns not aligning is a HUGE pain point.
Slam is a pain point because there is no real interaction in the rotation the promotes its usage
Yes in Midnight they added slam to Martial Prowess but arguably it is worse as a result of needing to be stacked 3 times (for 15% damage) vs 2 times (for 30% damage) which means you will be using MS a lot more often at the lower bonus damage threshold
Though ofc I am sure they will end up balancing the base damage of MS accordingly so overall its fine.
Sure they also added the option to either reduce the rage cost of slam or give it 10% higher tactician proc chance. However overall the interaction as to when to use slam simply boils down to everything else is on CD no procs and you are at >50 rage so the issue ultimately being there is no dynamic element of the rotation that promotes wanting to truly press Slam. Also rage starvation is a thing that can completely push slam out of the rotation as well as when you are in a proc surplus scenario slam is lowest priority again devaluing its usage.
Again the fact that slam’s usage gets propped up during lulls in the dynamic proc element of the rotation is another reason why it just doesn’t feel as an impactful button to press.
The MM hunter Arms Warrior Comparison
The Arms rotation is actually very similar to the MM hunter rotation however the MM hunter rotation I would argue is more fleshed out with every rotational ability interacting with each other.
Also has a proc aspect that can instantly reset the cooldown and makes it instant cast
So lots of parallels with MS and its respective resets
Aimed shot also has a chance to reset the cooldown of Rapid Fire so also feeding into the rotational loop (follows similar design to how overpower can reset the cooldown of Mortal Strike via Battlelord)
Rapid Fire parallels Overpower as the second core rotational damaging ability
Rapid fire feeds into the loop by reducing the cast time and focus cost on Aimed Shot
Kill Shot parallels Execute
Both Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire can Proc the use of Kill shot functionally paralleling Sudden death
So right of the bat you can see the extremely similar rotational feedback loop and how it synergizes with everything.
Now for the binding piece that exists for MM hunter > Precise Shots. This gives synergy to naturally promote the usage of the resource dumps Arcane shot (aka Slam) and Multi Shot (aka Cleave/WW)
Both Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire proc precise shots and it can further be enhanced so that Kill shot can consume the proc making everything rotational work together in the kit
Arcane shot mirrors slams as the single target resource dump
You naturally consume Arcane shot with precise shots buff which naturally flows from the primary core rotational damaging abilities Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire
Multi shot mirrors cleave/WW as the AoE/Cleave resource dump
Again same principle with the consumption of precise shots
Then Multi Shot has even further interaction to facilitate the AoE/cleave loop through trick shots and other talents
I will say that overall cleave/WW have functional talents that naturally feed into the AoE/cleave loop so less concerned about cleave/WW. Really the outlier when you dissect things is slam.
Resource management
Is more active for MM hunter but at least its more controlled and when piloted correctly never acts as a low moment in the rotation as you simply weave in steady shots
Which also feeds into the loop by reducing the cooldown of Aimed shot every time you cast it
So another example showing how the fillers have dynamic impact to the moment to moment rotational fidelity of how the rotation operates
Suggestions for Midnight
PVE
At this point what I think would be reasonable given the context of Midnight and the fact that we are already in beta is the following:
Apex talent moved to change Mortal Strike to Heroic Strike. When overpower procs it, the CD of MS is instantly reset turning it into Heroic strike so there is no issue of not being able to expend it.
Mortal strike is naturally the highest priority ability in the rotation so it just naturally fits better.
Heroic strike could also just naturally this way benefit from any modifier that improves MS damage.
This also helps alleviate some of the convoluted aspects that were introduced for the execute phase.
Given that they have this new tech to functionally change an ability
I would like to see Slam and Execute merged into a single ability as they both functionally are in large rage dumps
Outside of execute range the ability remains as Slam and functions as it currently does
Given my MM comparison maybe they can come up with some sort of intuitive change creating a meaningful feedback loop to use slam in the first place
With Sudden Death procs or in execute range the ability simply becomes Execute and functions exactly the same as it does now.
This ultimately would save us a SINGLE key bind and at least we can say that something was streamlined for Arms moving into Midnight
Given that Slam is functionally our lowest priority ability I can’t think of any scenario where this would cause an issue (i.e an instance where pressing slam over execute exists. If there is though and anyone can share I would be open to know and that would throw a small wrench in this particular suggestion)
PVP
For PvP I am opposed to Execute shifting to having a sizeable portion of its damage into a bleed. Functionally this is way worse and will directly impact our kill conversion ability within the tight execute windows. In all cases it is a down grade in a PvP context. I am not really sure why they opted to go this route in the first place vs historically how Deep Wounds has operated since its conception.
If the target does not die the healer will be able to more readily recover and healing through a back loaded DoT vs front load burst is generally easier to recover from.
Alternatively the target potentially was low enough and dies anyways not overly benefiting from the bleed duration to begin with.
Arms has always been about front-loaded upfront burst especially in the execute window which is arguably a hallmark of the spec
Heroic Throw baseline applying a 50% slow, also specing into the thunder clap talents increased from 40% to 50% slow.
Generally being kited and GCD bloat in the windows of uptime we have is still an issue for warrior.
I would like to see something streamlined or improved to address this in line with how other melee specs operation in the current iteration of the game
As an aside I am really curious to see what other people’s thoughts are for general improvements they would have liked to have seen for both Arms and Fury
It spends rage to trigger Tactician, buffs Mortal Strike, and enables Collateral Damage while using Cleave via Fervor.
I get not particularly liking Slam, especially for PvP players, as it is an ability that has been heavily disenfranchised over the years, but to say it doesn’t interact with the rotation is incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, they could just replace it with a weaker Execute, but that would also require a bunch of other modifiers (rage conversion, Deep Wounds, Executioner’s Precision) to make everything keep working smoothly (particularly for Slayer), which isn’t as simple as it sounds on paper.
It would also reduce an already pretty simple rotation even further, which isn’t necessarily a good thing.
You’d still be pressing the button the exact same way, so any complaints about “Slam” not interacting would just be pushed off into Execute “not interacting pre-35%.”
So while I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to such a merger, there are a lot of hurdles to get through.
The much simple solution is to just make it a more satisfying and interactive button, because you don’t improve a button by deleting the button. Whole point of reducing Tactician’s proc rate and making Heroic Strike improve Slam is to help players care about the button again, and they’d accomplish a lot more if they took that idea further.
I noted that the buff to MS is a new Midnight paradigm so for the last few years this was not the case, and yes I agree overall it is a net positive interaction
The CD Cleave Fervor interaction is moot as you are not actively pressing slam in that scenario it is a passive afterthought
So that leaves yes using slam having a synergy with tactician procs
The point I was trying to make is
As it stands now the only time you ever actively use slam is when every other ability is on cooldown AND you have a surplus rage to support pressing it
That is why the ability feels extremely lackluster to press there is no cursory dynamic rotational feedback loop that promotes pressing it in the first place
I tried to draw the comparison with precise shots being an example of a dynamic baseline rotational element that promotes using the resource dump. So when I press arcane shot it just feels more fluid and impactful
Even though in reality Arcane shot itself has no further interaction with the rotation itself, whereas slam actually does have a feedback loop element via Tactician and now martial prowess but still feels worse to press.
Though my suggestion doesn’t in fact delete it. In fact functionally it changes literally nothing with the rotation at all. The net effect is we simply save a single keybind for both abilities. They also wouldn’t need to change anything other then introducing the trivial logic to have the button baseline be slam and simply turn into execute with SD procs and sub 20/35%.
So the way right now slam turns into heroic strike when OP procs it. I was suggesting a similar mechanism to functionally combine Slam turning into Execute when the respective conditionals are met.
Yes, they could just replace it with a weaker Execute
So again I was not advocating the removal of slam or Execute. I was simply suggesting the same way they have the tech to turn Slam into heroic strike to follow the same approach for Slam and Execute which => Apex talent altering Mortal Strike into Heroic Strike
From a high level I agree with this premise however from an implementation perspective its a horrible way to artificially inflate using Slam. As it doesn’t address why Slam is not fun to press in the first place which is the main issue.
The two most impactful elements that retract from the rotation feeling fluid/fun are:
When you have a lull in procs - pressing slam more as a result does not make the rotation any more fun either.
When rage econ is low
This I 100% agree with and why I drew the parallel with precise shots the question is how can they functionally achieve this? Given that we already are in beta I don’t see them making too many more drastic changes which is why I offered a suggestion to at least streamline something by saving a single key bind without functionally changing anything in the rotation or removing anything in the rotation. As it stands now the premise of anything being streamlined is failed for Arms.
Sure but those “issues” remain even with your hypothetical solution, only difference is what button you’re pressing. Something is always going to be your lowest priority, best you can do is just ensure that low priority is still impactful
e.g. Slam should trigger Battlelord for Colossus, not Overpower - Overpower is already an incredibly overemphasized button that doesn’t need further importance, while Slam does. It also makes sense for that lowest priority button to enable the highest priority one, instead of getting stuck in a proc loop between two abilities and never progressing to the third (which is why it feels bad when that loop breaks and you “have to use slam”).
This is also why Heroic Strike replaces Slam instead of something else. They want that button to remain important instead of just being forgotten as soon as the target hits 35%. It should really proc from Mortal Strike though, because again Overpower is incredibly overemphasized and makes an absolute mess out of the Execute rotation.
– I should point out that you can use a macro to effectively bind Heroic Strike to whatever ability you want, so you don’t actually have to press your Slam keybind to use it.
The surplus rage part shouldn’t be a problem. Rage should be available enough to fill the rotation and if it’s not, that’s a separate problem.
Yes 100% my suggestion was not meant to address the issue of making slam “more satisfying and interactive” which would be ideal.
My suggestion was merely a concession to at least streamline one thing for Arms by literally saving us a single key bind. Since as it stands now in totality I view the changes to Arms moving into midnight to be superfluous. Especially when I draw a comparison to what was done to all 3 rogue specs.
I just have less confidence that at this point anything will change. Which is why I didn’t really attempt to provide suggestions on what they should change.
Yes potentially something like this, or alternatively some sort of dynamic feedback loop that promotes using slam after using Mortal Strike if we use the Precise Shots as a template. I am just not sure what a good parallel for Arms would be. Maybe something as trivial as simply just following what precise strikes does of reducing the rage cost and increasing the damage of slam functionally giving you a reason to press slam. Then overall all the core rotational abilities feed into each other.
Though that isn’t overly inspired so maybe there is opportunity for some sort of unique and fun interaction for Arms. Though its late atm and nothing is jumping out at me. I will think about this more and see if I can come up with something that also address the over-emphasis of overpower.
My original suggestion was allowing Soften Them Up (now Martial Experience) to work both ways:
Using Slam buffs the next Mortal Strike, using Mortal Strike buffs the next Slam, establishing a better loop between them. It’s not the most impactful mechanic, but on top of Battlelord from Slam, it would reinforce the button.
Taking Overpower off that function also frees up a talent point, because (shouting from the rooftops here…) Overpower is entirely too overemphasized, with 10 talent points in the spec tree alone. The fact that its a free attack made available by every other rotational ability and also launches an AoE is frankly enough to keep it important without anything else.
I understand, and it really isn’t a bad idea, though I don’t know that Arms’ rotation explicitly needs streamlining without something else to take its place. I am certain we’ll see some Arms changes in a future build, though I don’t expect major reworks at this stage.
This is actually in fact very similar to Precise shots. Because basically after using Aimed Shot your next Arcane Shot or Multi shot does increased damage and costs less focus which creates a natural rotational feedback loop between the primary damage abilities and the resource dumps.
So honestly yes maybe something as simple as this as you explained above and what I mentioned in my previous post would be sufficient. I was just trying to see if I could think of some cool or unique interaction that would be fitting for Arms and also solve the stated problem at hand. Though generally simplicity tends to reign supreme.
Just a spit ball idea but some cool interaction such as:
After using Mortal Strike you gain Tactical Focus, where tactical focus does one of the following (all just spit ball ideas)
Tactical focus causes your next slam to ignore a % of your targets armor
Tactical focus causes your next slam to increase armor pen by X% for Y seconds
Tactical focus increases the damage of your next slam and reduces its rage cost
Tactical focus causes your next Slam to bleed your target
Tactical focus causes your next slam to increase the damage your target takes by X% for Y seconds.
Tactical focus causes your next slam to reduce the cooldown on CS and Avatar by X seconds (has an Anger management implication)
And I was so hype, now clunkiness is back
Things won’t align and Ravager is weird stuff that never made any sense. You throw a weap on the ground that hits and follow enemies what is this? Bdk?
TBH it’s not a big deal. In limited testing so far, it’s been (ballpark) ~8% damage for Arms, which is maybe a little high, but seems more likely to drop with further refinement (specific ability tuning, rotational min/maxing, etc).
Fury is very high, but it’s pretty obvious they just missed the mark. Most specs seem to be in that 3-6% range right now. Auto-attacks aren’t what I would call exciting, but I really don’t think making up 5% of our damage is out of line either.
Yes but Avatar pre-dates the advent of “Hero Talents” which is where my comment stems from that as a generality, the creation of Ravager as a replacement for bladestorm was for PvE as an AoE alternate that doesn’t lock you out of using your abilities. Which is why it is a directly completing choice node. With the immunity/mobility (especially back when Ravager had 0 tracking) aspect of bladestorm being more desirable for PvP. This fact has nothing to do with the advent of Demolish.
Now I think what you are trying to say as a completely un-related point, which I agree with. Is that Ravager in the first place doesn’t need to exist period. On this point I 100% agree. Not even because Demolish exists but in fact because Bladestorm itself exists.
Which between the two my personal bias is that Bladestorm is way cooler, fun and more iconic than Ravager as its counterpart.
I prefer using bladestorm in PvE as well, even if Ravager is empirically better for throughput (again my bias).
Given the whole design philosophy of Midnight (which doesn’t seem to apply for warriors). They could literally have a PvE talent (probably would have to be PvE only) that allows the use of abilities during bladestorm. That would then completely eradicate the need to have Ravager ever.
Now a point I would not agree on would be demolish being an outright replacement for Bladestorm which isn’t clear if that is also what you are advocating for.
TLDR:
My personal bias is that I prefer bladestorm over ravager for everything PvE and PvP
I dislike it mechanically and the fact that its a ground targeted ability, that thematically feels a bit odd for warrior.
Ravager was created namely for PvE as an AoE alternative to bladestorm with the benefit being not locked out of your abilities
I would be perfectly fine if they outright removed Ravager all together.
This has nothing to do with demolish existing for colossus
I do not agree with the removal of bladestorm in any context ever, if that is what you were also insinuating with the existence of Demolish, but that part wasn’t explicitly clear.
What I am trying to say is exactly what I said: Colossus does not need a “talented AoE alternative” to Bladestorm because it already has Demolish which fills the same role that Bladestorm does for Slayer (both in single target and in AoE).
Adding another cooldown just for the sake of having another cooldown is the same kind of bloat that Midnight set out to consolidate in the first place.
Likewise, Colossus does not explicitly need Bladestorm for the same reason. The better solution is just putting a root break back on Avatar and making that the choice node instead, as has already been done with Fury. If Colossus players still choose to use Bladestorm regardless, then that’s fine - it’s their decision.
Well now you clearly stated your stance about bladestorm which you initially where skirting around or indirectly implying which I inferred but wanted to confirm.
I disagree, bladestorm existing as core ability for the Class and specifically for Arms fits the class perfectly and has been a staple for decades. To the point that I feel bladestorm shouldn’t even be a talent to begin with and should be a baseline ability at the very least for Arms. My concern being that you are playing around with an idea that is a slippery slope that could result in bladestorm being pruned
The irony then becomes the addition would be Demolish not Bladestorm in this instance as the “added cooldown contributing to the bloat”. Given the fact that bladestorm has existed since TBC where as Demolish is a new Hero talent in TWW.
Just to note though I do enjoy demolish as an ability and like the fact that it is one of the very few hero talent specs that actually introduced a unique new/cool active ability vs everything being mostly passive in nature.
For simplicity I would say I would not want Avatar/bladestorm on a choice node since they went back on purging Avatar. I would have been ok with them purging Avatar given that CS could act as the primary cooldown for the spec
As it stands now though the general model is very similar to Sub rogue
One primary offensive cooldown
Avatar for Arms
Shadow Blades for Sub
One core spec specific damage amp
CS for Arms
Shadow Dance for Sub
I do not classify bladestorm/ravager as a primary offensive cooldown in the same vein as Avatar, so honestly doesn’t make sense for me that BS would compete with Avatar as a choice node. The real value is their burst/AoE and in the case of bladestorm it has huge PvP implications.
It honestly doesn’t even make sense for Fury. As the choice is simply going to probably end up being for Mythic+/AoE you will take bladestorm. For ST/raids you will take avatar (ofcs based on the numbers after they complete they damage passes).
For me the logical simplification would of been
For Warrior:
Remove Avatar period
Have CS as the main offensive cooldown for Arms. Reck the main offensive CD for Fury
For rogue likewise:
Remove shadowblades
Keep shadow dance as the core offensive CD
This aligns with their stated design goal of midnight. Then they could just shift the power appropriately into the core abilities.
At this point I am just fine with them just keeping things status quo because in both cases for Arms and Sub it would require more over arching changes that at this point realistically wouldn’t happen.
You literally mentioned that you also do not view Bladestorm being needed (for Colossus) which is aligned with your view on Ravager else it would be a contradiction.
This is why I mentioned that it was implied by your first comment about Ravager not fitting for Colossus given that is has Demolish.
Why I said that I inferred which you later confirmed with your above ^ post (again for your stance it makes sense otherwise you would be directly contradicting yourself if you think Bladestorm is ok but not Ravager for the somewhat tangential point you brought up about the context of Colossus and Demolish)
Though to me Bladestorm is too iconic and intergral to Arms that I wouldn’t even want to ever skirt around the idea or notion that could warrant it being considered for removal (slippery slope)
Again Avatar being a choice node with Bladestorm as you mentioned for Fury honestly makes no sense. Since bladestorm is not an offensive cooldown in the same vein as Avatar.
If anything recklessness for Fury falls in the same category and would make more sense as a choice node.
The reality is they should of just proceeded with the removal of Avatar
Now that they went back on this due to player backlash they ended up with a half baked poorly executed middle ground of putting bladestorm and avatar on the same choice node for fury (which again doesn’t even make sense and I am glad they didn’t do for Arms).
