Jaina's character progression discussion

Sorry, I mistyped. Meant the word incursion is often synonymous with attack and that many uses include the word attack. Several sources/people can corroborate that. Hence why I find the idea they were using the term differently, especially given the context, a disingenuous stance. Or at the very least, strongly misunderstand the word’s use.

The Chronicle calls it an incursion, not the Night Elves.

Sure, but that’s not necessarily the case. Which is why I don’t find especially stringent consideration necessary.

7 Likes

What character progression?

You mean Power level progression.

Other than that she hasn’t progressed in anything.

She went from Elite tier to God tier. At this point she can end the global warming with a single spell.

3 Likes

Apparently you missed out on 17 years of wow. lol.

Jaina’s character development was outstanding up until post-Battle of Dazar’Alor, where Blizzard effectively decided to just reboot her brain and have her go back to Warcraft 3 Jaina with no explanation or development.

I’ve RP’ed this character, my main, as a Kul Tiran since Vanilla, and her most recent development has been very difficult to harmonize with my RP to the extent that I’m considering killing the character off.

Since WoW launched, this character - like many of my guildmates who also RP Kul Tirans - hated Jaina Proudmoore and considered her a traitor and a fugitive. The destruction of Theramore was confirmation that Lord Admiral Daelin Proudmoore had been right all along - and his daughter’s naivete had once again cost the lives of innocent people at the hands of the monsters who Daelin had tried to slay. This was further compounded with the Horde invasion of Stormsong Valley and the attack on Brennadam.

We waited for over a decade for Kul Tiras to be put into the game, and we eagerly anticipated how Jaina would be received - and we were not disappointed. Then, something interesting happened. Jaina managed to redeem herself in the eyes of Kul Tiras in a convincing manner! Making her Lord Admiral was certainly a bit of a stretch, but here we had character development that while difficult for some of our characters to deal with IC, was plausible and offered Jaina the opportunity to regain the love and respect of her people.

Then the Battle of Dazar’Alor happened - here we thought FINALLY, we will see Jaina take the fight to the Horde and follow in her father’s footsteps. Let her prove her mettle as the Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras!

The battle ended, a resounding victory for the Alliance and for Kul Tiras. We finally had a worthy successor to our hero Daelin Proudmoore.

Then that line which made me cringe and make my guildmates and I utter a "WTF???"

"Press the attack while the Zandalari mourn their fallen King? That would make us no better than the Banshee."

What?

F***K THE TROLLS AND THEIR FEELINGS! WE HAVE A WAR TO WIN! AN ENTIRE REGIMENT VOLUNTEERED FOR A SUICIDE MISSION TO MAKE THIS VICTORY POSSIBLE! YOU DISHONOR THEIR SACRIFICE BY STOPPING NOW!

And now she’s BFFs with Thrall again.

She has come full circle in utterly unconvincing, contrived and hamfisted fashion.

Beware, Beware… the Daughter of the Sea… indeed.

5 Likes

My opinion on Jaina was “meh” up until MOP when she went full on anti-Horde.

It’s not so much that she went anti-Horde, that never bothered and I actually prefer Jaina the Warhawk rather than Jaina the Pacifist. What I don’t like is the narrative telling me, a Horde player, that I should feel bad for Jaina and should be ashamed of moments like Theramore and the Divine Bell.

When I’m playin’ the Horde - the Alliance is my enemy. Vice versa when I play an Alliance character. I don’t want the narrative shaming me 'bout something my faction did to their enemies.

In the times where Alliance and Horde have to work together to beat a big bad, then it should be a cold “We don’t like you, but we need you to help kill this demon/god/whatever”.

I wish the Faction War ultimately ends up being a Cold War, mutually assured destruction scenario, with the occasional small scale border disputes.

Don’t see it happenin’ though with all the emphasis bein’ placed on idealist like Anduin and Baine settin’ up as some kind of “peace and brotherly love” between the Horde and Alliance. Gag me with a spoon, Blizz.

But yeah, Warhawk Jaina is my preference over Idealist Jaina.

Also, her power level really needs to be toned down a bit… or at the very least elevate a mage on the Horde side to be equivalent. Tired of the Alliance gettin’ demi-gods for their heroes and the Horde constantly loses ours.

7 Likes

Chronicle:

    Most of the region belonged to the night elves, but that did not stop Garrosh from sending troops into the woodlands.

Chronicle:

    He was not interested in asking the Alliance for resources or trading for them. Why would he do that, when he could simply take what he wanted by force?

Night Elves never gave them permission to cut wood there, either. The Night Elves have bene trying to kick the Horde out through Warsong Gulch since Classic. The conflict in Ashenvale has even been portrayed multiple times, such as in the Warcraft Comic and Wolfheart, with the Horde being repelled in both.

1 Like

is like every person should be a flawless leader that makes always the perfect choices and not having any sort of emotion.
i don’t know about you but i believe in character flaws. and i take it as such.

but she does help the alliance.
i mean, she tells u that maybe dalaran can have belfs and helfs in the same city and as such they could co-exist.
But then with the divine bell the threat is presented, as the kirin tor she wanted to keep the threat away from garrosh who has been weaponizing and proving himself as a world threat.
She wasn’t trying to use it to weaponize it, but rather keep it away from garrosh, mantaining neutrality was literally impossible.
if anything the purge of dala was incredibly well-written.
playing with flaws and perspectives.

Like i said, i don’t deny that she recieved bad writting, but so did pretty much every other wow character and ESPECIALLY those involved in the faction war.
(Like tyrande,sadly)

Well, you see, blizzard wrote these kinda of things this way because they want these discussions.

one of the reasons why faction war is garbage is precicely because of these things that usually led to bad writting because blizzard doesn’t do it right. they rather want it to write stuff in an ambiguous way.

i think that is why veloran is confused on who started the damn war (garrosh attacking nelfs) so he tries to justify as hard as possible the horde,maybe in part because he, as many others are frustrated how the writters turns the horde into bad guys.

and thats is more bad writting.
if you are playing the cata era, you will see these plot points are all over the place because “this is a gray conflict and as such, neither side is good or evil” but they clearly have proven that they can’t write stuff like that.
so when we have chronicles actually having a better explanation it feels like “it is a retcon that favors the alliance and put the horde in a bad light” and as such “the alliance are the writters pet”.

That is probably why the faction war stories are such a confused mess that ruins stories and characters just look at the bfa storyline.

That doesn’t happen when we deal with the usual bad guys.

We don’t have much discussions explaining the actions of, lets say arthas, we know why he purged stratolme,we know why kil jaeden corrupted the orcs, we know why the draenie were chased like rats. ect.

4 Likes

In growth?

As of this patch, she and Thrall are teaming up to save Azeroth through the power of friendship.

Just like in WC3.

I want to like Jaina. Not least because she is wonderfully voiced by Laura Bailey. But her character arc is just all over the place.

13 Likes

I think Jaina’s character progression has taken a few too many zigzags, and her sudden power level isn’t helping, but I do like the concept.

In a sense, I’d rather have more Jaina-type characters than less, because while her progression has some glaring issues, it’s still progression and that’s better than a lot of characters get.

Jaina was fun as the idealist character struggling to try to make her ideas work - not the best presentation, but it felt like she had to work for her successes, where characters like Anduin have the universe bend unnaturally around their wishes which makes them feel obnoxious rather than wise. Jaina’s struggle with her father was a big character moment for her, and showed the depths of her dedication to peace. It’d be great wedge issue if the current Horde and Alliance were more morally balanced, but the current crop of bad writing makes the whole scenario seem worse in hindsight.

I think Jaina ping-ponged a bit too much between hating the Horde/forgiving the Horde/hating the Horde again, but I did like that she settled down to a stance in between her previous extremes… At least, I think that was the goal with her.

I don’t think the writing reflects this, but showing vs. telling has been a big issue in the game’s writing for a long time now. It does feel like the Alliance post-Dazar’alor scene was written by someone who’d just been told that they had 10 minutes to wrap up the plot. “Uh, we can’t attack because… it’d be mean. Yeah. Come back next patch.”

In terms of power… I think Jaina suffered from being shoved to the front of this story, gaining a bunch of super flashy abilities that are meant to look cool but ignore any realistic implications. So, like any powerful character. She’s just been rubbed in the players’ faces enough that it’s too annoying to ignore.

I think if Jaina had a few more/different lines, it’d be fine. If she had some other reason for not wanting to push the Zandalari after the raid, and spoke about the goal that those Alliance soldiers had died to fulfill. (Or better yet, have the void elves teleport most of those soldiers out, so it wasn’t a full suicide attack to begin with.) If she was the one who asked Thrall what would be different this time, and took a few more seconds to trust him, or mentioned that she’d trust him because she knew him, but would have to see good behavior from the rest of the Horde before she trusted them, too. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it would help.

6 Likes

But you yourself have no proof she did nothing! It is a lore void at the moment. And every other lore( the fact no one Alliance sidd blames her) points to the fact she is not to blame.

The actions of a few that had dire consequences for everyone. If she did nothing another Theramore could have happened. I’d also point out as unsavory as Arthas massacre is in Stratholme he had few if any options left. If you want someone to blame for the purge I suggest blame both Garrosh and the Horde/Horde PC. Ultimately if they did not steal the bell the entire purge would not happen.

Of course ingame no blaming her is just as much justification that we shouldnt blame her either. That whatever you have is just head canon.

And ultimately Jaina has to live with that choice. She has already made peace with that choice and even VOL’JIN once forgave her. The blood elves will have few if any choice left once this is all over. They either move on from the Purge, or keep feeling bitter and probably spark another war. Element know the Alliance will still outweigh the Horde in terms of reason to want to keep fighting and if the Horde/the blood elves want to keep doing so, well I expect it wont end well for them.

2 Likes

And if she reacted responsibly, she could have prevented alienating the Blood Elves, driving them away from Varian, and costing the Blood Elves and Alliance more lives.

Ultimately, if Jaina didn’t purge the Sunreavers, the entire purge would not have happened. But obviously Garrosh and his collaborates share some blame.

6 Likes

She had to make a quick choice with fairly limited options and information. Heck, in an alternate scenario where she did nothing and waited and ANOTHER artifact got stole I expect people would blame her for it! It was a no win for her.

I’d also point out, Varian had just send Anduin to Jaina a quest or two ago to ask her to force the blood elves out! Worse case scenario is neither really had the chance to talk to each other due to no fault of their own.

If the blood elves did not help Garrosh steal the divine bell the purge would not have happened. Period. The blood elves need to stop blaming other for their own mistakes!

2 Likes

Yeah, one of them was conducting a more thorough investigation without such hasty actions/conclusions.

In an alternate scenario where she acted responsibly, I expect a lot of Horde, Alliance, and Kirin Tor lives could have been saved! Sounds like a win to me.

If Jaina did not Purge the Blood Elves, the Sunreavers would not have been purged. Period. Easy concept.

5 Likes

And let the Horde steal another item in the meantime?

And I see an alternare scenario where the Horde gain another magic weapon to use against the Alliance. As far as I’m concern what Jaina did was a win for the Alliance.

Don’t betray Jaina and Dalaran and you wont get thrown into the Violet Hold. Easy concept.

2 Likes

Oh so if one member of a group does something bad, i can then slaughter every member of that group as payback? Glad to know that one Night elf rogue ganking me means that Teldrassil was actually the night elves’ fault.

10 Likes

Sylvanas and Garrosh used it as justification for their war. Turn about is fair play.

1 Like

Acting responsibly/conducting a thorough investigation/not having hasty actions and conclusions does not = the Horde stealing other items for several reasons.

And I see a scenario where another magic weapon isn’t stolen, the lives of Dalaran citizens are not lost, they are not abused/tortured, the Alliances loses less troops fighting the Blood Elves, and becomes stronger as a whole. As far as I am concerned, that is a much better win for the Alliance.

But they didn’t, and she still purged them. But if Jaina doesn’t purge people, no purge. Are you following?

Clearly not taking decisive action sooner(like agree with Anduin before the divine bell was stolen) would have led to no item being stolen at all.

You assume the best case scenario would happened. I expect the worse case one to occur. The blood elves(clearly their were more than a few) decide Garrosh was right and kept helping him. Hell, Lother’mar mentioned right now he is not even sure the blood elves would follow him over Sylvanas. SLYVANAS!

They did. Or to be precise some of them did and their leader did nothing to stop it. The blood elves already caused Jaina to lose Theramore, they should be given a second chance to do further damage.

1 Like

Doesn’t take responsible action at the time off the table.

You should stop being such a pessimist.

Hardly clear there were more than a few.

So, to be more precise, they did not. One known person did and one person was blackmailed into not acting.

Also not ‘the Blood Elves’. Heck, Aethas was one of the people who cast the deciding vote to help Theramore. Whereas a bunch of humans have betrayed the Kirin Tor, but that isn’t held against their race. Kel’thuzard, Aegwynn, Medivh. Heck, Benedictus and Farthing betrayed the Church, maybe it should be purged from the Alliance.

4 Likes

Posting for an EU fellow discord member :“You do realise that the closest events to the purge of dalaran we have to real life is kristalnacht? It’s not a healthy or moral stance to have. To persecute and incarcerate innocents without even a trial or hearing. By such a lose assosiation as being blood elf.”

3 Likes