Oh, but in Siege of Orgrimmar we see civilians being tortured.
And moral superiority is equally disgusting.
i believe that is human nature seek reprisal and vengeance.
is not âoutmodedâ is in our DNA.
Someone kill your loved one, what do you do? forget and forgive?
or you go to the house of the villain and burn it to the ground?
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On both sides. Did you miss the orphans cowering in fear? The auctioneers publicly humiliated? The orcs that were massacred in the Cleft of Shadows?
Killing innocent people is NOT okay. This should not be an argument.
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Lol, weâre talking about 2 big groups here.
Both have representatives, the Horde did something atrocious, the Horde as a whole must pay.
Merchants, Workers, each of them actively participate in supporting the Hordeâs War Effort. The only true innocent ones are all the children in Orgrimmar, but then again collateral damage, if they must die to ensure the safety of the Alliance, then so be it.
Itâs World of WARcraft, not World of Pinky-everyone-lives-happily-ever-after
If the Night Elves had done a Theramore to the Horde too and proved how far theyâd be willing to go to fight a War, I wouldnât have blamed the Horde for doing anything similar to fight back.
agreed, but not only the horde later do a theramore, but also worst (teldrassil) makes you wonder why this faction is even allowed to exist considering that the alliance time and time again have show good faith in the hopes for peace.
The alliance is not even trying to wipe them out, so why the horde keeps doing the same atrocities over and over again and then hiding behind either blaming all into a warchief or a world threat?
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It all boils down to either them/their leaders being stupid enough to appoint people that were clearly not born to lead into leading positions.
There were big red flags of Garroshâs true personality. He was Ok at best as a Warrior, he was extremely skilled, but putting him in a position of so much power instead of veterans of the Horde was stupid no matter where you see it from.
Now, with Sylvanas itâs different, since it wasnât a stupid green orc that canât take criticism that appointed her. Their current leader, who by the way was doing a really decent job, got tricked by a higher entity.
But, itâs still stupid considering most of the Horde followed her orders and reveled in them. Considering how they went through a similar situation in the past, it shows their true colors honestly. Varian should have dismantled the Horde the same way Jaina should have drowned Orgrimmar.
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Yes, i hope that somehow this time they can show that the current efforts from anduin and jaina to get to peace are well placed in baine and thrall and that they can somehow prove that they can be trusted as a good force for the world.
otherwise, it would make them both of them, and the alliance complete idiots for not killing them while they had the chance or to make all these sacrificies to try to put an end to the bloodshed.
so please horde, prove that daelin was wrong and that their existence can be justified in the story and not because is a playable faction.
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If you think the war in WoW consists only of the hack writing that is the Horde and Alliance then you are woefully blind to the many, many other threats with whom weâve warred.
Anyway, killing innocent people is wrong and you should feel bad for even attempting to justify the murder of them - and children, no less.
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Boo hoo, moral superiority strikes again!
Weâve been talking about events that occured during the Horde vs Alliance war during Cata and MoP.
So donât pull out the âother threatsâ card because that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Amen
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Glad to, if Blizz ever allowed us the opportunity to actually prove such things. From what Shadowlands looks like, its going to simply be WoD2.0 electric boogaloo. Time for Blizz to escape the wreckage they caused, and focus on easy Horde characters to write. Thrall will get some dead parent fixation again, and Liadrin will get her own little Light oriented side story with Kael. The rest of the Horde will vanish into the background âŠ
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I wouldnât say that the actions of Jaina and Sylvanas were the same. But I think I know what Rivendel was referring to about Vanilla Theramore and it did go beyond the Theramore deserters and Kul Tiras remnants. There was never absolute peace between Theramore and the Horde even back in Vanilla. TLDR: The Alliance-Horde conflict used to have some depth. The theme consistently pushed by the writers in the Horde story from Cata-BfA has been that Daelin was completely vindicated but there used to be some nuance.
Nazeer Bloodpike: We may not be in open war with the Alliance, but blood is still shed between us.
Nazeer Bloodpike is an orc in Brackenwall Village in Dustwallow Marsh. The village is surrounded by Theramore infiltrators and quests reveal there were Horde spies positioned around Theramore as well.
Quest: Theramore Spies
Summary
Nazeer Bloodpike: The Horde and Alliance hold an uneasy truce. Outlying skirmishes and covert actions are taken by one side against the other, and it is our duty to ensure the Horde is on top! Now is the chance to do just that. Alliance infiltrators have taken positions east of Brackenwall Village. They spy on the village and report our movements to Theramore, which we cannot allow.
Quest: The Theramore Docks
Summary
Nazeer Bloodpike: [Name], two of our spies were sent to steal documents from a ship at the Theramore docks. They gained the papers but were discovered, and were forced to throw the documents into the sea.
On top of that, many Theramore troops were out of control even in Vanilla. I definitely donât think Jaina ordered any of it though. It was more likely soldiers taking liberties with or loosely interpreting their orders. In the Horde quests to discover who burned down the Shady Rest Inn, the Horde PC and Ogron (a Stonemaul ogre) track down Paval Reethe (a Theramore deserter) to question him but then Theramore soldiers (Lieutenant Caldwell, Private Hallan, and some unnamed Theramore troops) show up and kill Paval then attack the Horde PC and Ogron.
Quest: Questioning Reethe
Summary
Paval Reethe: What was that? Did you hear something?
Lieutenant Caldwell: Paval Reethe! Found you at last. And consorting with ogres now? No fear, even deserters and traitors are afforded some mercy.
Lieutenant Caldwell: Private, show Lieutenant Reethe some mercy.
Private Hallan: Gladly, sir.
She switches to a bow, shoots him once, and switches back to her sword. Paval Reethe staggers backwards as the arrow lodges itself deeply in his chest.
Paval Reethe: Ugh⊠Hallan, didnât think you had it in youâŠ
Lieutenant Caldwell: Now, letâs clean up the rest of the trash, men!
Ogron: Damn it! Youâd better not die on me, human!
Alliance questing shows they were sent there officially by Captain Garran Vimes of the Theramore Guard.
Quest: The Deserters (2)
Summary
Captain Garran Vimes: I will send Lieutenant Caldwell to deal with the deserters at Lost Point. In addition, I will instruct him to find Reethe. The marsh is not so big and trackless that he should be unable to find him.
There was also a blood elven ship that ran aground on the shore of Dustwallow. Theramore forces imprisoned Ithania (one of the two surviving crew) and looted the cargo. Balandar Brightstar (the other surviving member of the crew) sends the Horde PC to rescue her from Theramore troops at North Point Tower.
Quest: Twilight of the Dawn Runner
Summary
Balandar Brightstar: When my ship, the Dawn Runner, ran aground, those curs from Theramore made off with my cargo and last surviving crewman. I made my way here searching for help, but those good-for-nothing ogres stared blankly at me when I told them my story. I could use the help of a reliable in recovering what remains of my cargo and freeing Ithania from North Point Tower, to the northeast, where theyâre being held.
Balandar Brightstar: Have you freed Ithania and reclaimed my cargo from those glorified privateers?
Balandar Brightstar: Well done, [name]! As soon as Ithania has had time to rest and my preparations are complete, weâll depart this sodden wasteland and head back to civilization.
The Theramore troops stationed in Northwatch Hold in the Barren were particularly out of control. They attacked ships that came within range of their cannons regardless of whether or not they were Horde, including Steamwheedle Cartel and neutral merchant vessels sailing into Ratchet. The Thaloâdan Privateers (a neutral or Steamwheedle affiliated organization of high elves) lost so many ships and crew to the soldiers at Northwatch that Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun (a Thaloâdan Privateers high elf), hires the Horde PC to attack Northwatch in retaliation. While there, the Horde PC can rescue Gilthares Firebough (a second Thaloâdan Privateers high elf).
Quest: The Guns of Northwatch (old)
Summary
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: Yet another ship from my fleet has been lost to those overzealous humans at Northwatch Hold! Those pests must be dealt with. Their paranoia has them in a state of frenzy. Trigger happy, reckless louts are shooting at anything in their sights. Travel south along the Merchant Coast to the Hold and lay siege to their forces. Bring me the medals of their soldiers as proof. And for the love of my fleet, slay Captain Fairmount and her overzealous cannoneers!
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: My fleet is in peril with Captain Fairmount and her damned cannoneers blasting away from Northwatch Hold. I want her soldiers to pay as well. Fill my hand with medals from their dead and I will know that vengeance has been given to my fallen privateers.
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: Alas, the righteous Alliance guns have been silenced. You shall be rewarded for your aid, [name]. Now to tend to the grim task of recovering the bodies of the deadâŠ
Quest: Free From the Hold
Summary
Gilthares Firebough: Finally! Someone to rescue me! I canât believe you got past the guards. These zealots from Theramore are out of their minds. They sank our ship and imprisoned me, the only survivor. I was called an enemy and threat to the Alliance. Me! A threat to their great sham of an Alliance? I was a deckhand on a moonshine transport between Ratchet and Booty Bay. Enough talk. Help me get back to Ratchet will you? Let me know when youâre ready and weâll make our break.
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: And to think, we thought Firebough was long dead! Your heroics have earned you a place of honor with the Thaloâdan Privateers, [name].
Apparently this either continued or resumed in Cataclysm and got even worse. Northwatch soldiers continued to sink Steamwheedle Cartel/Thaloâdan Privateers ships that approached Ratchet. And eventually Rear Admiral Hartley, of the Northwatch Expeditionary Unit, blockaded Ratchet. Both Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun and even Gazlowe now hire the Horde PC to retaliate against Northwatch for their aggression.
A Captainâs Vengeance
Summary
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: Yet another ship from my fleet has been lost to those overzealous humans from Theramore! Their new Rear Admiral has parked himself right off the coast here. Heâs boarding or sinking any vessel that doesnât heave-to at his whim. Travel south along the Merchant Coast to his camp. Bring me the medals of the marines and deck hands. Execute his top Lieutenants, Pyre and Buckland. Lay waste to them as they have laid waste to my fleet!
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: Fill my hand with medals from their dead and I will know that vengeance has been given to my fallen privateers.
Captain Thaloâthas Brightsun: I see youâve made the righteous Rear Admiral suffer as I have. Perhaps this blow will weaken the resolve of Northwatch. His supply of fresh recruits seems inexhaustible, but the loss of his top Lieutenants will weaken him for some time.
Quest: Club Foote
Summary
Gazlowe: All this new friction between the Alliance and the Horde was leading to windfall profits, until Rear Admiral Hartley sailed into MY harbor and started poking his prow into my business. Heâs been searching and seizing vessels flying horde colors with the goal of depriving them use of a neutral port. Iâm not about to allow some fat-fingered human to cut into my profits! Get me the schematics of his flagship. Hartleyâs Chief Engineer is soaking himself at the Broken Keel Tavern just up the hillâŠ
Gazlowe: You got the goods?
Gazlowe: Ah, this is it - this is it right here! So his flagship is named âThe Bellipotentâ eh? Letâs see what itâll take to send this nuisance to the bottom of the sea.
Quest: Love it or Limpet
Summary
Gazlowe: Gazlowe spreads the plans on the table and jabs a tiny finger aft of the ship below the waterline. There! The hull is thinnest here, where the crankshaft meets the paddlewheel. And itâs right next to the magazine! [name], I canât be held responsible if some enterprising Horde [class] were to attach a limpet mine to that part of the hull. Not even if I supplied the mine. And paid [him/her]. Handsomely. The ship is anchored just southeast of here⊠go to it! Then radio me with this stolen gnomecorder.
Gazlowe: Did we make some nice kersplosions? Did we?
Gazlowe: Excellent! I wish I couldâve seen the look on that Rear Admiralâs face when his flagship went up like a candle. Let me use my telescope here to take a look at the damage.What - Whhhaaatt!? That thing is still floating? Hartley mustâve moved the munitions ashore in case his ship was mined.I underestimated you, Hartley⊠but for the last time!
Quest: Ammo Kerblammo
Summary
Gazlowe: Hartley mustâve unloaded all of his ordnance along the beach. Letâs pull his teeth out, [name]! Run along the shore and look for his munitions stockpiles. Light 'em up and heâll be land-locked and unarmed while the Bellipotent is repaired. Iâll meet you back here in Ratchet.
Gazlowe: Hah! Beautiful work, [name]. Those Alliance cretins will never trace this back to me. Meanwhile, itâs back to business as usual: smuggling, double-dealing, price-gouging⊠Iâve got a lot of work to catch up on. Here, Iâll let you in on a cut of my future profits. Enjoy!
14 Likes
thank you for the summary there are some things that i wasnât aware.
i donât think that jaina was having a secret agenda that she was behind of those attacks, but it was rather her troops going out of control and i think that is actually pretty great, her troops didnât respected her authority, or at least not all of them and then payed the price.
it would be nice if we could had the same depth in the cata-bfa wars.
but the focus was much more on the main characters rather than the normal people.
probably it had to do with the fact that cata was rushed in the first place, if i go now to duskmallow ally side feels⊠unfinished.
4 Likes
Honestly, when it comes to the current Horde ⊠at least the foundation is there for some chance at redemption; provided Blizz doesnât get board with the status quo ⊠or want to hide from the wreckage theyâve caused in BfA to every side.
Thrall as MU Orc leader; Rokhan as Darkspear leader; Gazlowe as Cartel leader; and Voss (should she get some good development) as Forsaken leader all have the ability to bring nobility to their races, that reflects their races. A council is also a good way to showcase these characters; as well as the underdeveloped Horde AR reps. Heaven knows, Talaanji, Geyaârah, Mayla, and Kiro need some work. Conceptually, it is the political environment that could push for some semblance of the redemption you seek. But ⊠again ⊠its all on Blizz to actually follow throughâŠ
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Because our entire conversation was divorced from the âJaina is just like Sylvanasâ topic to begin with. So yes, itâs entirely relevant.
Sorry youâre upset that I called out your weird blood feud involving the killing of children and civilians, I guess.
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Vereesa is literally the one who reaches out to Sylvanas and summons her to Windrunner Spire because she wants Sylvanas to help her kill Garrosh. Itâs her idea to poison Garrosh, not Sylvanasâ.
Vereesa baited Sylvanas into hoping she might be able to have someone she cared about and trusted in her life again, and then got cold feet and yanked it away. She couldnât even be bothered to explain it to her sister in person, she sent a letter. Itâs one of the grossest displays Iâve seen in this story. Vereesa is not the victim in that situation.
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Sorry, no.
If anything Jaina = Tyrande.
Someone wronged her, so she retaliated. Outside forces stopped or slowed them.
The same cannot be said for Sylvanas.
I love the Dark Lady, but sheâs gone around the bend following her new beau, The Jailer.
1 Like
This is why she was crying in the comic trying to apology, right?
i donât remember exactly the situation in war crimes but i think that sylvanas did feel betrayed and manipulated by veressa and that is why she is now. lets say not okay.
and then alleria came back and apparently she only saw her as a monster, funny considering that she ate the heart of a void god.
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No, Iâm pretty sure the differences are several atrocious mass slaughters that were actually committed, the abandonment of everything they stood for for the sake of preventing oneâs own death in the face of a horrible personal afterlife, the fact that one started a war just to rack up as much death as possible on both sides with no intention of either side winning or loyalty to either side, and the straight up shattering of the planes of life and death.
When Jaina does anything close to at least one of those things, then you can say theyâre equal. Until then, please pack up your Jaina hate-on, and take your garbage role play thread elsewhere.
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Yup because she knew she was super emotionally abusive to Sylvanas in Warcrimes and that she handled the whole situation horribly.
I think Sylvanasâ last thoughts in that novel are something along the lines of how she was stupid for thinking she could ever experience happiness again. Safe to say Vereesa messed her up even more than she already was.
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Correction: At the end of the day she didnât do it because Thrall stopped her, twice, and then her morals stopped her on the third attempt.
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