Jaina doesn't actually kill civilians in the Purge/Teleport them the Violet Hold

Lore Story Forum
570

Did you even check these laborers surroundings? There are dead Horde bodies everywhere and Horde siege weapons. Again, it was only though swift action that they were beaten back. Also why should the night elves abandon their homes to invaders?

And the Horde would have wiped out the night elves as well. And we saw how the War of Thorns ended. It was kill or be killed and it wasn’t the night elves who started it.

Except we did not see any kids or non-combatants. The quest doesn’t have us go around killing kids or non-combatants. So I expect it was a Theramore scenario where there were kids/non-combatants evacuated. Unless you can prove the Alliance did kill kids there?

And like what happened to the High elves I expect it was a situation where the dwarves made their homes in Ironforge/uninhabited areas. The trolls attack them and ultimately got beaten back. The issue with all of this ancient history is we don’t know who stuck first. If the Dwarves did, fine they were clearly villains in that story, but it has always been silent.

They were not being target because of their age but because they were planning on attacking Anvilmar. And again:

The dwarves currently consider the Frostmane tribe little more than a nuisance, and have not made a concerted effort to vanquish them.

The attacks any Alliance does has been for pre-emptive measures.

The terms used for the trolls in other languages are “jeune/cria” for french/spanish. There are all called “young trolls” but nothing has ever specified we are killing kids.

As for the Stonespire there were other suvivors: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Stonespire_tribe

I am willing to retrack my statement on this because Chronicles does state it was the Horde who got the kill on Hakkar, having said that.

He did. His trolls are still squating in Stormwind Harbor to this Day!(someone get them out of our habor!!!)

We helped the Zandalari. So alot of our own questing was directed by them.

Rastakhan could barely care about his own kingdom’s problems. As it was Zul was the one trying to unite the tribes. And you mentioned why the should aid the Alliance with guys like Trollbane? Well why should they work with the Horde when Vol’jin had a hand in ruining their whole uniting the troll people plan/killing countless Zandalari in the process.

Because for the most part it has blood due to needs of defending itself rather then for conquests. The few times it did do it for less then honourable reason the perpetrators either ended up dead(like Bael Modan) or didn’t have the support of the Alliance as a whole(Daelin/Garithos)

Again, we are not killing Frostmane kids. They are “young trolls” but not kids. That is how “whelp” is being translated in other languages.

571

And no nelf civilians. Just soldiers laying around. As it should be in typical warfare.

But it didn’t in Cataclysm, it’s in Cataclysm that Nelves went “purge them all!”, which is what this whole discussion is about. I said “Don’t act as if Alliance never went genocidal before” becase it did, and it was example of it. Night elves fully intended to completely wipe out entire tribe and leave no survivors.

How about you simply use simple common sense. If it means kill all, then it means kill all no exceptions. Or you’re going to tell me that entire tribe doesn’t have kids and non combatants.

To make it clear, you’re trying to justify childslaughter? Exterminating youth becuase overall frostmane is hostile, and it’s hostile becuase Dwarves keep getting more and more of their land for themselves?
You are not foing away with this buddy. Dwarves are genocidal, and especially vile becuase they’re purposefully tageting kids. The only quest in the game that allows you to murder children for a starting adventure.

Really? To me it looks like full blown expansion that was carried over the years and any form of resistance is met with complete decimation.

You’re telling me that Trolls which are of the size of a dwarf , same trolls that are towering over night elves usually, are not a kids?
How will you mental mymnastic this one?

Apparently Frostmane whelp that barely reaches hip of adult troll female is not a chald.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/625441978112278547/1243497648636432445/WoWScrnShot_082020_193127.jpg?ex=6651b0ee&is=66505f6e&hm=e92a8ce94578ce764bbe7f51a6051943f89a620b3095f85d31bf22b18fa2e132&

Unbelieveable.

Wow, so instead of 1 we have 3. But that doesn’t mean that the entire tribe is pretty much gone, in the very source you posted the Stonespire Clan is deemed “a memory”. It’s gone.

What I meant is that he personally didn’t contat Alliance leadership, he sent few people to the docs to search for volounteers/ adventurers who wanted to do something in theri free time.
And obviously it was done so Alliance could get to do a content.

But you said that Antire Zul’Gurub was dealt by Zandalari + Horde. So that leaves WotLK interactions. It is a thing, but in the end, Zandalari were neutral back then, it is more of an incident, than some bigger declaration of support to one another. In WotLK our primary enem was scourge in the end. So everyone that was seemingly against thim were friends (except Drakkari whom we all sabotaged in defending themselves).

That is true, but Zandalari tried to recruit Vol’Jin again in MoP period, becuase they saw great value in him as fighter and strategist. In the end Trolls will always prefer other Trolls, and even more when they show their superiority.
And well Rastakhan was done dirty, entire Zandalar questing was nothing but missed opportiunities to truly flesh out Zandalari lore. Instead we have poor popculture references, memberberries without any substance, and some really strange narrative decisions, but it’s another subject.

Dwarves were not “deending themselves” they were full on conquest.
Night elves retailiated, but they went full on “exterminate them all”. I really hope you hold the ame standard to a Horde for nuking Theramore who was a threat to not one, but three Horde races. And I’d say that nuking of Theramore was better becuase Garrosh did give Alliance time to evacuate civilians and get actual military reinforcements, which was later contradicted in SoO raid to make Garrosh look extra evil (as if he wasn’t already).

Whelp means kid.

whelp /wĕlp, hwĕlp/

noun

  1. A young offspring of a carnivorous mammal, especially a dog or wolf.
  2. A child; a youth.
  3. An impudent boy or young man.

Look at it again :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/625441978112278547/1243497648636432445/WoWScrnShot_082020_193127.jpg?ex=6651b0ee&is=66505f6e&hm=e92a8ce94578ce764bbe7f51a6051943f89a620b3095f85d31bf22b18fa2e132&

And tell me this isn’t a child.

It is. Trolls are growing up pretty fast additionally. They should’ve been at the size of a human if they were early teens.
But these trolls are of the height of dwarves. How old could they possibly be?

as a matter of fact, the only quest in game that allows you to murder children is done by the Alliance. Instead of arguing with me, you should criticize Blizzard for allowing it in the first place. There were so many ways to work around it. Change them to adults, or just smack them like orcs smack peons to make them run away. But that is not the case.

572

What Jaina did is irrelevant. Blizzard trying to justify it is the real problem here.

573

They won’t take risks with the Alliance story. I mean, they didn’t to begin with, but given the Alliance player reaction to trivial stuff, I guess they are even less inclined to do.

And all that Horde is a Family stuff is crap to me, I played a Forsaken more than I did an orc and nothing Forsaken-related made me feel like I was part of some family. And honestly it makes no sense. I mean ok, Tauren are nice to everyone, but orcs, goblins, undead and trolls? It just sounds like a fun mix, but not a family-fun kind of mix. And obviously, since the Horde tends to kick it’s own rear when a conflict starts with the Alliance, I really don’t see how it’s a family. It’s more like a bunch of personality cults at odds with each other. But I don’t mind that cause it’s more fun that way.

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574

Not commenting any faction stuff here but its obvious that Blizazrd slowly tries to erase faction identity.

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575

I think the family part was referring to OG Horde, so Orcs, trolls and Tauren who were in brotherhood of arms, and their bond was tightly knit. Forsaken from the very intro were established as “alliance of convenience” so ofc it didn’t apply to them.

And Darkspears were living to that standard, the reason why only in late WotLK they reclaimed their islands was becuase they chose to support Horde first on it’s campaigns.
They priotized wellbeing of entire faction over their own. Thrall even reflected how Trolls helped with supplying orcs with food.

As for Tauren and orcs, the bond was also meant to be something of the beauty , here are the reflections of Thrall.

I remember when we first encountered the tauren. I remember Cairne Bloodhoof’s deep voice and calm face. I remember sitting on the ground in a tent that could be broken down and erected with startling speed, and feeling oddly at home. We smoked pipes, shared food and drink, felt the drumming in our bones, and talked. The tauren seemed to me bestial at first, but there was wisdom and humor in them, and by the time the first round of negotiations had been conducted, I knew that the orcs had a rare ally in these half-bovine beings.

Night had fallen while we spoke, a soft night befitting this beautiful land. We left the tent and gazed up at stars too numerous too count, a sweet wind caressing our faces. I turned to Drek’Thar, to ask for his wisdom. To my astonishment I saw tears on his face, glinting in the moon’s light.

“This is how we used to be, my chieftain,” he said in a broken voice. He lifted his arms and tilted his head back, calling the wind to embrace him and dry the tears on his strong green face.

“Close to the earth. Close to the spirits. Strong in the hunt, gentle with the younglings, knowing our place in the world to be right and just. Understanding the balance of taking and giving. The only magic the tauren practice is the good, clean magic of the earth, and the land reflects that, the way Draenor once reflected our connection.”

I thought of the tauren’s request for aid in fighting their enemy, the vile, filthy centaur.

“Yes … I feel for them. It will be good to be able to help them,” I said.

Drek’Thar laughed, turning his blind eyes to me and seeing me more clearly than anyone with sight could.

“Oh, my young Thrall,” he said, chuckling still, “you do not yet understand. They will help us.”

That used to be the Horde. The Horde I fell in love with.
Now? I agree with you, it’s a faction that consist of people that would sooner priotize their own self interest. I really hope that Darkspears this time will get the memo, and not try to be martyr again on the altar of Horde integrity.

576

Daily reminder that Amani and Ogres are still not playable.

577

I feel we need to clarify something here. Thrall isn’t your typical orc. He’s an orc in aspect, but not much else. He was raised in another culture and has, more often than not, tendencies that go against the orc mentality. That being said, here’s where the part about cults of personality comes along. Because Thrall is Friends with Cairne, every orc must be frieds with Tauren and because Carine is friends with Thrall, every Tauren is friends with orcs. That’s not right and that’s proven across Cataclysm. Orcs are orcs, despite Thrall’s wishes they were more like him, but most of them proved to be more like Grom. When the time came and the orcs had to choose a side, they chose the Grom-like orc even if they respected Thrall. I really liked that.

Anyway, not like it matters any more, cause the Horde has been castrated. The boring Alliance morality formula has been institutionalized into the Horde across 2 expansions, thanks to Golden and her team. So now you have that family you want, cause everyone is written to like everyone else.

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578

I get what are you saying but in this regard it wasn’t just Thrall but Drek’Thar and they were reflecting on the future of the Horde. And in Vanilla there were lots of quests where Horde was helping each other out of good heart. Like that Witch Doctor who cured depressed orc in Hammerfall.
So I’d say that it was a thing in the past, but since Cataclysm that indeed seemed like no longer a case.

Yes it doesn’t matter anymore. But “boring formula” as you claim doesn’t really apply there. if anything Horde now is pretty spineless becuase it’s priotizing wellbeing of Alliance over their allies. Look how horde quickly dropped Zandalari after the raid.
That’s not what family is supposed to do.
And even in Shadows Rising only Rokhan reall had Talanji’s back and even called Horde “toothless” cowardly (Talanji called the rest toothless).
You’re not supposed to abandon your own for the sake of your enemies. And this is what Baine represents, a guy who is more concerned about wellbeing of Alliance instead of his own people.
And now Thrall who is more and more hanging around Alliance than members of his own faction.

579

Well, that’s what you get when you end up as the Alliance’s ugly buddy. Much like Baine, another one of Golden’s pet projects, you’ll put the Alliance above everyone and anything else.

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580

I think that if Horde was written by people who actually respects the Horde for what it is, instead of transforming it to copy of Alliance when it comes to mindset, then we would be in different place.
I think Horde as a famil could work, you’d have to establish that we don’t always see eye to eye and we can argue a lot, but if someone hits one of our own we retaliate with incredible viciousness - would be fine to me.

I think the most beautiful interpretation of the Horde would be by other Vol’Jin’s words “This world give us nothing, it’s our lot to suffer and our duty to fight back”.
It would establish that Horde went through many Harships but it will always fight back against any adversary.

And I think that Arathi warfront music for the Horde was beautifully encapturating these words.

Right now? I don’t know what Horde is supposed to be. I honestly think it would be better if it was dissolved and formed other factions in it’s place.

4 Likes
581

He says its a memory. You know these NPCs can be wrong?

Again, because the Alliance halted their advance before they could get to the civilians.

These same night elves currently allowed the Shatterspear to return. And again our questing had us fighting against fully armed trolls. Not civilians or children.

Again, it could simply be all the kids were evacuated/the more canonical view of the quest is they didnt go out and kill the kids.
Again prove to me that the Alliance did go around killing kids. Because if that is what Blizzard wanted to show/tell they would do it points at Teldrassil

There is nothing indicating the dwarves were even interested in any of the current holdings of the trolls and all indication that any actions taken in vanilla to current was all in self defense of the current holdings(which is probably hundreds of years old at this point)

To me it look like the trolls doing the most troll thing ever of continuing hundred year old grudges for wars they lost long ago and trying to reform empire that were long dead.

Jaina’s model would tower over a normal night elf. Varian’s can tower over Draenei. My point is model size is used as short hand for how powerful enemies can be. This quest wasnt some deep introspective attempt at showing the Alliance fighting child soldiers. It was just a quick way for the devs to show the Alliance fight weak enemies(like troggs) then Mid Size troll before having is fight their elite fighters.

582

Zerde spouting nonsense again. What else is new.

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583

And you are adding nothing but petty insult.

584

What is it? What is the Horde that is worthy of respect?

585

but most of them proved to be more like Grom. When the time came and the orcs had to choose a side, they chose the Grom-like orc even if they respected Thrall. I really liked that.

Would disagree with this notion tbh, the majority of the orcs sided with Thrall and the Darkspear Rebellion over Garrosh Hellscream as confirmed by Blizzard.

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586

Why don’t you answer that. Come on, I’m curious to know what a fanboy like you thinks the Horde is.

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587

I think that the Horde is a bunch of savages living in mud huts, because that is what I see on My alt in Orgrimmar.

That is why I am asking YOU, a Horde stan, what the Horde is to YOU. :man_facepalming:

588

You were asking Zanthora actually, but ok. The Horde is a fictive faction in an online game, that is often characterized by entities from the darker side of folklore, one of the two factions a player might choose to play as.

And by the way, you described Orgimmar, genius, not the Horde. And you didn’t even do it right.

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589

So why should I respect something that is out of the “darker side of folklore”?

Seems like you can’t tell Me why I should respect the Horde and keep dodging the question. :slight_smile:

Shall I describe Thunder Bluff instead? Well, at least it’s just huts without the “mud” part (I think). :rofl: