And you know I have the opposite view. The sooner we blame this on the Horde, and maybe actually have them make up for all the chaos they have caused over the years, the sooner we can actually move forward with peace. If the factions have to end so be it, but not before those responsible for the messes over the years actual atone for it.
And on Jaina specifically, she sacrificed everything to try and have peace, even her father, only for her efforts to cost her, her city. She should not be punished more/have to sacrifice more because of it.
Itâs Alliance. And no, I donât have another Horde toon I could use to do it again to see if it is bugged or not.
However, what I do remember is the one time I did it on my Horde toon, if you attack Jaina she does not kill you and in fact also teleports you to the Violet Hold.(hence getting confirmation that the Horde are simply being teleported there, as oppose to somewhere else)
Actually, Jaina did have a trial. In Kul Tiras. Got sentenced to that island people never come back from. Her mother declared a mistrial and brought her back.
To be fair⊠I wouldnât exactly be surprised if any of that was true. The Horde fosters a very militant culture in a lot of ways. Among the Orcs, honor is derived from skill and deed, and more and more over time, power. The idea that Orc children are taught to hunt and fight and survive from a very early age would not be at all contradictory to their culture (over the length of much of WoWâs lifetime, at least).
The same applies for a lot of the Hordeâs core races. The Trolls, as another example, had their survival linked to the strength of each member of the tribe. Even among the Tauren the ability to defend oneâs tribe is paramount.
So, every farmer, shop keeper, or civilian was probably better trained and equipped to fight, than we give them credit for. Are they soldiers? Not by the Hordeâs standards, no, but by comparison to their Alliance counterparts, theyâre far more likely to be qualified as combatants than the run-of-the-mill farmer/peasant.
This is, of course, a lot of generalization, but thatâs kind of what we have to go off of. Blizzard rarely gives us strong in-depth perspectives into the cultures, let alone lives, of our playable races.
What person in WoW doesnât have Severe trauma at this point?
Sylvanas had far worse trauma, doesnât excuse what she did.
Baine had his father die and had to wrestle with becoming leader right as a bunch of his people got massacred. He didnât go bloodthirsty insane.
These are the two extremes, but hiding behind a trauma excuse when Jaina had no qualms with pushing a similar trauma on others shortly before is lame. Jainaâs actions can be explained by the trauma, but should not be excused by it.
Psycopaths or as-of-yet races we havenât met Iâm guessing.
She had her own mitigating factors, like a soul split in half, for starters. Does it excuse what she did? No. In the end, she was still in control of herself, master of herself for every atrocity she committed.
Contrasted to Jaina, whoâs only been known to attempt genocide once⊠thereâs a stark difference between the two.
Fun Fact: In one timeline, he DID! But in ours he didnât since he had some support to rely on. Oddly enough⊠Jaina and Anduin.
I never said, âexcused,â I stated there were mitigating factors to consider. If a character is not in their right mind due to outside forces and/or trauma, and attempts a terrible act, then that act is not necessarily indicative of who they are.
Warcraft is a series built on, âmitigating factors,â like that. Weâre supposed to accept the Orcs were never bad but were always okay, because the Second War had them crazed on demon blood, for example.
I have no doubt your average Orcish household as several axes, a handful of spears, and a couple hatchets under the pillows.
Which is kind of curious in hindsight.
Because a militia was the Allianceâs thing back in WC3.
But Orcs would likely have an amazing militia.
Tauren might beat them out, but only because even your average Tauren is a truck of muscle with horns.
Clearly we need empirical data.
I suggest we steal obtain farmers from every city and pit them against each other tournament style.
Yes, but the difference is, orcish veterans of the 2nd war weâve seen in WoW almost universally regret what they did and are ironically some of the bigger doves as far as things go because they fully understand that they did horrific things even if they were coerced/mind controlled/bloodlusted into doing them.
The only reason this has been brought up for Jaina, is because she hasnât really atoned or shown contriteness over it. Iâm not saying she needs to get sent to the Guillotine for her crimes, just donât show her victims yet again simpering to her just because sheâs a pet Author character. Alliance fans were insulted over Tyrande choosing to prioritize life over revenge (and still got her revenge, just in a less visceral way), it works both ways.
Well, she never actually did commit genocide, and as far as the Sunreavers go they were imprisoned, and then released later. Weâve seen her atone and show contriteness for a number of her past actions, namely if you were Alliance and playing through Kul Tiras during BFA.
Yeah, I wasnât really all that keen on Aethas trying to make up with her, to be honest.
Itâd be why I would like to see the Bronze Dragons just⊠laying it out there for all involved. I would honestly like to see the Purge given actual closure. Jaina, Aethas, and Lorâthemar just watching the events unfold. Start with Aethas being threatened with the destruction of QuelâThalas if he doesnât keep quiet about the theft of the Divine Bell, his surprise that some of his own Sunreaver Agents were involved, and from that point the rest more or less explains itself, really.
Knowing Garrosh, I think Jaina could forgive Aethas for his betrayal of the Kirin Tor. I think sheâd also ask for forgiveness in turn for how far the purge went. I donât feel like Lorâthemar has anyone to forgive or ask forgiveness from, I just want him clued into what happened because itâs important and relevant to him. Maybe throw Thalyssra in there for the heck of it. Itâd be good for the Nightborne to get more insight into the past Horde/Alliance conflict if they want to do anything to prevent future problems from arising.
Of COURSE theyâd fix this so long after the fact, if it is indeed a fix.
Its just like how they removed the Post Wrathgate UC Scenario (where Varian declares literal war on the Horde). Because they cannot help themselves but whitewash, retcon, walk back, or bury the Alliance under so many justifications with what few âgreyâ acts theyâre allowed to commit, theyâre proven in the right even from their victims viewpoint. Which is why this BUG that condemned Jaina to being a murderer of innocents in her rage was patched; while the other BUG that removed the part of the scenario that made Aethas so much more sympathetic will never get patched. Yâknow, the one where he discovered the theft of the Bell moments too late to stop it was literally thrown into a horrific situation of either betraying Jaina or Orc Hitler?
The Alliance are pure, flawless, paragons of every conceivable moral virtue ever known to man; and Zerde is the poster child of that reveling in Moral Absolutism. While the Horde are evil, vile, deeply flawed monsters; easily manipulated through their repeatedly reinforced primitive and wrong faiths. And who can only prove how ânot evilâ they are by how convenient and submissive they make themselves for all that is goodness on the Alliance. Never mind how creepy that trend in Blizzâs writing is since Cata when you consider which cultures the races of both factions are primarily (but very loosely) inspired by.
What exactly is âGreyâ about the Void Elves? That theyâre so good and pure theyâve realized the error of their ways and joined the Alliance, while for all respects overcoming the corruptive nature of the Void and using it as a power up? As well as get settup with an auto excuse to invalidate any evil they do commit, because âtheyâre under the influence of external evilâ if and when they do? Theyâll be sterilized into a peerles white shine just like the Worgen did. Its not even a question.
Friggen Alleria void tortures an Orc Mother in front of her kids in one of the post BfA Books, and sheâs framed in the total right for doing so. While the Blood Elves are the ones framed in a negative light for excising the Void Elves from Silvermoon for goodness sake.
Doing horrible things mostly. Justification is provided, certainly, but that doesnât change the fact that what they do is largely evil.
Thatâs not how itâs framed at all. Even the Void Elf and Lightforged Draenei following her and Turalyon act pretty unnerved by the torture they do on the Orc Mother and the Human Smuggler Father (and Jaina gets pretty pissed off about it too, leading to a very unpleasant dinner at the Proudmoore home in Kul Tiras later).
Are they? As far as I know, this has never been touched on.
But they do nothing to intervene or stop it, because its framed as being ânecessaryâ for the âGreater Goodâ. And I canât think of a single instance the Void Elves have done something shady that wasnât overwhelmingly framed in that light. It benefits the Alliance, the Alliance are morality itself in this setting, thus what theyâre doing is necessary and right. Nor do I ever expect Blizz to ever commit to having âstill in controlâ VElves truly do something horrific or go âtoo farâ. Theyâll never frame it that way.
The VElves will be quickly treated just like the Worgen are.
That was for her crimes against Kul Tiras, not even for anything she did against the Horde.
Ok, so when the Alliance characters do get a trial, the one that did⊠it is only for crimes against their own people. And her mom has the final word. While the crimes against the Horde are ignored.
Unlike the trials against those Characters who committed their crimes while they were in the Horde, where there crimes against the Alliance are center stage.