Grandblade seems to know more about the red team, than most people with red backgrounds around here. (cough Goshom cough, actually i take that back, EVERYONE knows more than Goshom) A HUMAN. PALADIN. That knows more about Horde, than Horde players, just let that sink in for awhile.
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of the direction Sylvanas is taking the Horde, but that doesn’t mean I’m particulalry a huge fan of how Saurfang is carrying out his operation either. I only want to go back to playing the unlikely hero fantasy that i was sold when i first rolled Horde, and Sylvanas is pushing the faction to become irredeemably evil. To a faction that needs to get it’s butt spanked and finger wagged by the Alliance, because our faction acts like a child that can’t behave for one second after an adult turns their back, and then gets mad at the adult for punishing us for misbehaving. It’s sad but it’s true, we apparently need the Alliance to keep us in line because we can’t be trusted anymore to behave on our own.
It angers me to no end when someone presumes that i like Alliance the Alliance just because i dislike Sylvanas, which is simply NOT the case. Obviously I’ll play both sides just to get the whole story, but the Horde will always be my preffered faction. So when i encounter some arrogant goon who proceedes to tell me to switch factions, it just feels like an insult to both my pride in my faction and my own intelligence. No one has the right to declare what faction someone else should or should not play, people have the right to play whatever faction they want. People are going to have different opinions, and that’s ok, like, i disagree ALOT with the Sylvanas crowd and I’m pretty sure many people in this thread know this very well. But I’m not going to tell them how they should think because that’s not for me to decide, the only thing i can do is express my own opinions and explaining why my opinion is what it is. Just as they can only express their opinion and explain it, and opinions are MEANT to be disagreed on, that’s why they’re opinions and not facts.
Bottom line is, just because people on the same faction don’t agree on something, doesn’t mean they don’t belong on the faction, they just have a different viewpoint and see things differently. Which is fine, because that’s just how people are, not everyone is going to see things the same way as others.
For various reasons, he just didn’t think it was safe or practical to reach out to the other Horde races.
Uh…what?
Garrosh had no idea Baine would warn Jaina. He used other means to ensure they’d expect an attack on Theramore. He actually expected Baine ( and Vol’jin) to be awed by his brilliant plan once it was revealed.
No one in the Horde other than Perith Stormhoof knew Baine warned Jaina.
Not until War Crimes.
Now everyone knows.
No one cares.
I saw that.
You were one of the people I was thinking of when I made that post.
Hmm, it has been a long time since I read the book so I might have it wrong.
Still doesn’t make what he did any less treasonous.
That is because common sense and logic don’t apply to Blizzard’s writing. It also doesn’t change the fact it was outright treason which was the point to start with. Just cause he got off scott free doesn’t make it any less treason, something which has become somewhat of a pattern.
At best Baine choses to treat the laws and oaths of the Horde as optional as he sees fit. Not a great habit for someone who claims to be dedicated to preserving the Horde. You don’t preserve something by undermining the systems which make it a functional institution.
Absolutely none of this makes my original point any less valid.
Didn’t we have a conversation about how treating the laws and oaths of the Horde as optional as she sees fit applied to Sylvanas, too, and then she was made Warchief and has been going around claiming she’s dedicated to preserving the Horde?
If I’m understanding this thread right, it’s about being able to dislike Baine and Sylvanas both, for different reasons, but in this case one can dislike both for the same reason even.
Wasn’t intending to argue your original point. Not tonight. I have no energy for that debate.
Just pointing out two things that were factually incorrect.
Jaina wasn’t his first choice, just the one he thought was most viable under the circumstances. And Garrosh had no clue that Baine tattled. He found out in War Crimes just like everyone else.
Oh Sylvanas really isn’t any better. However Sylvanas will almost certainly be killed off soon or at least removed from the leadership of the Horde. There is a very real risk that Baine might be the next warchief.
One of the biggest issues I have with BfA is how utterly useless it makes the Horde as an institution. It is completely disfunctional and broken. It has no checks and balances, no systems of limiting the influence of people who go off the rails and a bad habit of casually dismissing treasonous acts as ok because ‘honor’. Particularly since no one seems to agree what honor actually is, that isn’t a good thing.
My character is supposed to be a champion for the Horde, defending it from all the evils of the world but almost the entire time my character interacts with her own factions it is cleaning up it’s constant screw ups or getting involved with behaviour that will end up biting her on the butt later.
I don’t want to fight for such a faction because if it cant even deal with its own crap then why should I bother protecting such a dysfunction mess. Because some punk naïve troll whelp thinks it is the only home he can have? His tribe almost left the Horde only a couple of years ago.
It isn’t worth saving as it is. I am almost at the point where I would let it die and have the morons in charge deal with the consequences of their incompetence as leaders. It is even more depressing that we need Alliance influence to even get those who are showing any sign of action at all to get off their asses.
What an utterly useless faction. Hell the only heroic thing that was successfully done this expansion was Uldir and the player, yet again, does all the heavy lifting because the Horde fails to stop it from reaching that point.
Because it is? That doesn’t mean Saurfang is a direct agent of the Alliance, but it does mean that the Alliance is using him towards its own ends.
As a historical analogy, its similar to when Germany helped smuggle Lenin back into Russia during WW1. He was not an agent of the Germans, but they knew he would be a destabilizing force and thus would act in their interests. Similarly, the Alliance didn’t let Saurfang go because they want to help the Horde. Just the opposite.
You, and people who think this way are a blemish upon the Horde community.
It is not for you to determine what peoples’ reasons are for not wanting to kill Alliance, and even less to determine whether or not they desire to kill fellow Horde.
I honestly cannot tell whether you are joking or are actually just that ignorant with your “if they’re not with us, they’re against us.” philosophy.
Sometimes the right thing to do is to stand against your leader and fight the loyalists. The problem with the “but not during war” argument is that it is Sylvanas who started and keeps the war going. As it is, she has and will continue to throw away Horde lives in a war the Horde cannot win.
I can see blood elves being treated this way, especially by Garrosh fans during his time, but I’m fairly certain that no one would tell Forsaken mains to go play Alliance, unless their argument was based primarily around the fact of Forsaken being undead humans.(a.k.a. baseless racism)
-I dislike BFA Sylvanas, BFA Baine, and BFA Saur
-Actiblizz wants me to HATE Sylvanas
-Actiblizz wants me to LOVE Baine+Saur
-Actiblizz is forcing this in a crass and shallow manner
-It me want to defend Sylv and crap on Baine+Saur
No it’s more about people telling them they don’t belong in the faction and less about joining the Alliance. Yknow, typical mUh TrUe HoRdE bs. People have been diminishing their roles in the Horde since Vanilla and BC despite both of them adding very interesting themes, aesthetics, and characters to the faction.
Honestly, I’ve personally never even really took much issue with Blood elves. Aesthetically they can be polarizing to the Hordes’ general primal aesthetic of mudhuts and spikes, but ideologically the Blood elves are arguably more in line with Horde than Tauren, imo. I’m pretty sure most people are just salty that they’re the most popular race on the Horde by a vast margin.
As for Forsaken, I never really started thinking about their place within the Horde until Sylvanas was made Warchief. It was never really that much of an issue for me cuz the vast majority of their story was fairly isolated and their actions weren’t representative of the faction as a whole, they simply demonstrated the more demonic aspects of the Horde and that’s what made them unique and appealing to some people, and that’s fine. It wasn’t until Sylvanas was made Warchief and their demonism came crashing to the forefront of the Hordes’ narrative, that the Forsaken become problematic for me, both endangering Hordes’ ideals and threatening to destroy what little integrity we have left within the faction(thanks to things like Garrosh, turning out the way they did). Now that she’s Warchief any action she takes or commands others to take, tarnishes a lot of heroic traits that the Horde has ever had, and that’s why I’m mad all the time. Because people would rather see the Horde, as many people know it, crash and burn under Sylvanas’s clearly evil leadership than get this crapshoot of an expansion over with and quickly move on.
Anyone with the capacity for thought should know darn well that no matter how many people support Sylvanas, she’s not coming out of this expansion on top. Burning Teldrassil pretty much sealed her fate real tight, and the only way she could ever get away with something like that is if the quality of the writing somehow becomes really good or continues to be really bad, in all honestly. Because, it IS possible that Blizzard could come in clutch with a huge surprise that no one could ever see coming, as slim a possibility as it is. But even then, it would surely peeve off a lot of Alliance players, especially Night Elf fans who have now had their home destroyed and their people slaughtered, but would get no justice for it. HOWEVER, keep in mind that Sylvanas is one of Blizzards few remaining marketable characters in the WC franchise, like, they can’t sell Saurfang or Baine even 1/10th as well as they can sell Sylvanas. So I’m almost positive that they aren’t going to kill her off at the end of the expansion.
The Horde narrative is already in shambles for both parts of the Horde. I’d rather not have to put up with the side I identify with being completely destroyed to prop up the honor Horde and Alliance buddies so they can feel like heroes in a rehashed storyline in which they already got to play heroes. So yeah, looks like we’re all gonna have to put some faith in them to reconcile this without completely destroying one side in favor of the other… LOL.
That much is clear, but i would rather avoid a civil war is disposing of her, i would rather a glorious revolution over an English civil war. Mak’gora, Assassination, Public outcry, whatever, i dont care if it makes perfect sense, just not another civil war.