So you did move your argument over the definition of peer. Thanks for clearing that up.
No, you literally don’t understand what peer means. Or at least I could assume before you didn’t, now that you have been informed I can only assume you are being dishonest on purpose either to troll or because you just can’t admit there is a flaw in your favorite video game.
and who defined it as requiring it to be the totality of your peers? You because you want to defend this crap?
Winning means beating the other player, and there are A LOT of other players you can beat by paying real money in this game.
You don’t need to beat the top player in order to have technically won in any game.
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No, what determines whether a game is pay to win is whether you can pay cash moniez to obtain competitive advantages over your non-paying peers (or peers who have spent less.) Even the most egregious pay to win games can involve some degree of skill. For example, if it is possible for a more skilled player who spend $80,000 on a game to best a player who spent $100,000, said game does not magically cease to be pay to win.
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WoW is pay to win. Anyone who argues different is in denial. Blizzard even started a services trade channel cause they sell so many tokens.
This is part of their business plan.
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There is a soft form of P2W, in that you can buy a token with real money, sell the token for gold then use that gold for a carry or to buy a BoE. If that’s your definition of “win” then I guess WoW is P2W. But not everyone shares the same definition of what it means to win though. There is no hard P2W like a premium currency vendor that sells high iLvl gear or distinct advantages though. That would truly be P2W.
Logical fallacy spotted! Ad hominem!. First of all, you don’t know anyone’s qualifications here, and even if you did, they would have have absolutely zero bearing on the strength of the arguments. Arguments are independent of the persons who make them.
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I know what a peer is, you’re arguing in bad faith.
By the definition given, anyone should be able to get an advantage over any other players if they pay enough but since that was demonstrated to not be true (you admitted you couldn’t beat DrJay with any amount of money), you moved it to a more convenient place IE new players even though the game as been centered around end-game content for years.
WoW is not P2W. Not yet anyway.
You’re the one arguing in bad faith. It’s incredibly dishonest to call some dude just getting into arena a “peer” of a top player with BIS gear. They aren’t peers. Literally the only thing you need to do to prove something is pay to win is to take two SIMILAR players (Which is what peer means in any social context) and see if one would benefit with more gold. And in every case except for one where both players already have BIS gear, it does.
That is the only thing that needs to happen to prove you can pay to beat other players. When money can be used to substitute skill in the above scenario, you have paid to win.
Similar is what peer means. SIMILAR. You can’t argue with the above argument because it would require admitting you’re wrong.
They created the services channel to get the spam out of trade chat, because on bigger servers it’s impossible to use it for anything other than services.
If you’re arguing that WoW is P2W, your adversary is irrelevant. Whoever it is, you can pay to defeat him. If you can’t, then it’s not really P2W is it?
Wow has some elements of Pay 2 Win, but I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s a P2W game.
First of all, I think it’s unfair to include player behavior in order to judge whether it’s P2W or not. Almost any online game would be P2W if we take into consideration player behavior that’s not an official part of the game, if that games gains enough popularity.
So, boosting, be it M+, raid, PvP, whatever… that can’t be considered P2W if we are to have a fair discussion.
All you can get through in-game systems is a few BoEs and some crafted gear (the latter being lower ilvl than what you get doing content). So, while it is an advantage, it’s far from being a “win” condition or decisive to complete content.
Making other people behave in a certain way through gold isn’t a game system, it’s a social reality that emerges from online gaming, and happened way before tokens were a thing.
Now, what’s “winning” in wow? In my opinion, to be able to “win” in this game you need to be able to complete certain high difficulty content.
To win in PvE, you need to complete a Mythic Raid or a high level keystone. Right now you can buy carries for lower content, but I don’t think a relevant number of people who was cleared mythic has done so through paying carry. The same would go for high level M+.
I don’t do PvP, but I’m pretty sure buying carries can only get you so far if you aren’t good yourself.
So, I think WoW isn’t an example of a pure non-P2W game. It contains some elements of it (mainly the token), but it’s far from being an example of a P2W game either. It’s somewhere in between, and I’d say closer to non-P2W than the opposite.
No, it’s not. It’s literally the most relevant part of the argument.
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You’re hiding on a classic alt. Which means you’re scared to post on your main. That’s proof enough.
You’re under the impression you have a strong argument.
The fact is your argument is weak. You’re just trolling at this point.
Regardless of what we want to technically call it, part of the problem is the old slippery slope argument has been becoming true for a while now.
When level boosts were first added some people decried it as pay to win, as it was technically an advantage after all, even if a very small one and one really over new players.
It was defended with “Well it’s not like you’re getting an advantage over most players. It doesn’t even get you to max level, where you can’t buy anything. It’s not like you can buy gear with it”.
Now we can buy gear with it and it’s become “well you’re not getting an advantage over the top players, and it’s not like you’re directly buying gear with it. Gold is easy to get anyway”.
At this point there is little doubt in my mind Blizzard could actually sell gear and people would go “Well it’s not like you can beat the best players with it, and it’s not like that gear is that hard to get. It’s not P2W”.
If you want to argue the strict literal definition then there are A LOT of players in this game I could pay real money in order to beat.
Beating them is considering winning.
I paid to win.
The fact that there exists a small fraction of people that are skilled enough to overcome it isn’t relevant.
P2W model doesn’t care about people being similar or not. Only the wallet matters.
You keep going on about peer needing to be equal where the whole point of P2W is to make you win regardless of skill.
I’m speechless. You just changed the definiton of P2W again…
That’s all you guys can do…
Can you do that on every opponent or are you gonna get destroyed by better players?
Rethorical, you can’t. Not P2W.
I paid Blizzard extra money in order to have the resources to beat them.
The only reason I beat them is because of that extra money I spent. Without it, I would not beat them.
I have paid in order to win against them.
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First of all
First, the word “win” in the phrase “pay to win” should not be taken literally. The phrase has always been used to simply refer to any game where you can pay for competitive advantages, regardless of whether the game features a victory screen.
Second, even if you wanted to argue that purchasing (wholly within game rules) boosted gear for gold purchased for dollars from blizzard isn’t P2W, you can also just buy mythic BoE gear at the auction house directly with gold purchased from blizzard with real dollars.
While the situation you describe with a special premium currency unobtainable without cash would of course be a worse form of P2W, you’re still able to convert real money to character power and competitive advantages over others in WoW, which is the essence of pay to win.
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You’re just wrong. All P2W requires is beating someone of equal skill level by swiping your credit card.