Is the "Meta" classes killing the game?

Community General Discussion
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There’s “competition” after it received 35%+ in direct nerfs, and even at that - they’re still inferior options that bring repeatedly less utility. (AI, food, timewarp + self timewarp, spellsteal, etc)

It’s the vers buff coupled with the ridiculously overtuned self healing, survival, and spammable aoe damage due to rage freedom on Guardian. Spamming Raze for self healing + aoe damage with endless rage that also procs 200k heals to your group? Zzz.

I want to see Holy changed into a casted turret healer like it used to - and arguably should - be.

Shadow, and Mage are representing the top positions game wide even without Aug.

Your post is very heavy “Aug is the enemy” - but it’s not. Aug shines a light on overperforming things by making them perform even more excessively. If other classes were equally viable, Aug would make them equally as powerful… but it doesn’t. Because they aren’t.

Aug takes a gap of 8% and makes it 15%… But the gap of 8% still exists. Aug isn’t the enemy; failure of balance around dps specs is. The disparity between Fire Mage and Outlaw Rogue is so massive that if you gave Outlaw two aug evokers 100% dedicated to buffing them; it would still parse less than the Mage without priest or Aug.

“Constant stream” is a bit of an extreme stretch. Looking at DK (Non-viable M+), DH (Non-viable M+), and Evoker. Over the course of twenty years - 3 new classes isn’t a “constant stream”.

Evoker, and specifically the elephant/enemy in the room - Augmentation - has a place in the game. I would’ve preferred it be a tank spec, but, it wasn’t. The “buffer” class has a place in WoW/MMOs. The issue is that you have 5 specs out performing 19 other specs by such a massive discrepancy that it makes the buffer class look overpowered.

As I said above, it simply shines a brighter light on things that are broken. It takes classes from best-in-the-game to bestest-in-the-game. They’re already #1. It just makes them more of #1. It doesn’t make the #15-24 classes in the game anywhere near as powerful, because those specs aren’t nearly as viable.

which is the problem. The margin of error between DPS rankings 1-5, 5-10, and then 11-24 is massive. To the point that playing those specs at all is considered trolling.

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43

I agree, which is I why I think Taliesin’s idea of Class Skins is probably the better option going forward.

For context on Class Skins
Necromancer, Dark Ranger & Spellbreaker! CLASS SKINS Are The Answer In 9.0 - YouTube

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Unfortunately the “we need a new class so i can play it for a week and then forget about it” crowd is awfully loud.

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I find it hard to agree with this. It’s not ‘shining a light’ so much as ‘focusing 10,000 lumen spotlight’ on certain specs. The nature of ‘buff specs’ is always going to make certain specs seem more valuable then others, especially with design like Augmentation.

Since the ability on Ebon Might doles out main stat, any class that scales well with their main stat is going to more greatly benefit from Augmentation. For instance, casters like Fire Mage and Shadow Priest since casters have a near linear growth with extra int. Any melee class will not nearly benefit as much (over a long enough period) as their damage is a bit more complicated math (dealing with attack power, and main stat, and weapon swing speed, so on and so forth) its more of a logarithmic growth pattern.

(To say nothing of the issue that specs with 2 min CDs line up much better with Aug then anything else, but that’s a whole other tangent of discussion in how Augmentation breaks the game around it to benefit itself)

(Quoted as an example of this exact phenomenon where not everything scales the same)

Outlaw Rogue definitely needs some design fixes, but its never going to scale as well as Fire Mage with Augmentation - unless you nerf Fire Mage so its noticeably weaker then other things without an Augmentation present. The entire design of Augmentation is one that narrowly benefits a select few things, to the clear extreme detriment of others.

Evoker definitely has a place in the game. Devastation and Preservation are interesting specs, if in need of a little love. But Augmentation? No, I don’t think a buffer spec of this design has a place in WoW. Not to say specs shouldn’t have buffing abilities (I like windfury totem as a situational benefit, same as Mystic Touch and the like) but those are extremely limited, extremely specific, incredibly narrow use cases. Augmentation is far, far too much and designing an entire spec around buffing only exacerbates issues rather then helps. I’m still of a mind that PI should be a personal, or at least any instance of it cast on another player is limited to only 5% haste. As you say -

8% can be within the margin of error, 15% is a flaw to be fixed.

As one last note

Same

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46

Tell me you know literally nothing about endgame without outright saying it. Dont speak on stuff you are totally clueless about

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You said it well here. It’s no surprise that the tank that scales the best with Aug is ofc bears with a myriad of their abilities/defensives having scaling with their primary stat. Bear is still the best tank no doubt but the gap closes a lot when you remove the Augvoker factor. Throw in icings on the cake like Aura mastery, etc… and you have an essentially un-killable comp.

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48

Would all those specs be good without Aug? Yes.

Do those specs all disproportionately benefit from Aug’s buff profile moreso than other good specs? Yes.

All the mechanics you’re describing that are “OP” in Bear are OP because they have very high AP Ratios and Augment gives insane levels of primary stat to Tanks who wouldn’t have access to it without them. This doesn’t benefit every tank equally, as I pointed out earlier with Blood DK’s

You can’t decouple Augment from the problems with the Meta because Aug is the catalyst for those problems and will continue to be. Augmentation is a force multiplier, which means that whenever you’ve got a spec that scales well, whether that be Fire Mage, Shadow Priest, or anything that may pop up due to changes in talents and just general tuning, Aug will turn them to 11.

You can argue that the problem is that Mages scale well or whatever and that is true, but a spec is always going to scale well and if you ignore the core problem of what’s causing high-scaling specs to overperform, then all you’re going to end up doing is playing musical chairs with which specs Aug is making OP.

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Then there’s no point to continue the conversation with you. I’m not here to argue why hundreds of thousands of people enjoying something shouldn’t exist because you don’t think it should.

8% is not a margin of error. 1-3% is a margin of error. 8% is deliberately bad class balance.

What? Bear 2 and 4 piece is giving them insane hp scaling… Then consider raze/thrash self healing, endless rage, two offensive CD’s, a group proc heal, and a target 400k insta heal. This doesn’t even mention the better-than-legendary Spear activatable to sync with your other aoe CDs. Bear, as a spec, is wildly overperforming. Aug has nothing at all to do with bear being head/shoulders above every other tank spec. Know what the highest non-aug bear key is? 27. Know what the highest non-aug/non-bear key is? 24. A 3 key gap is massive.

If you woke up today, and Aug didn’t exist - those classes would still be the only classes played, and utilized because they’re still the best in the game. That’s the issue aug-doomers don’t get. Those classes are already better than yours. They are already the meta. The reality is Aug took the 3rd dps spot in parties. Now “friends/family/courtesy invite” spot doesn’t exist like it did prior. Before you’d take the same 2 meta broken OP classes, but you’d have a floater spot for generic classes. Now you don’t, and the classes who were the non-meta third spot don’t get invited so they’re big angy.

You are actively ignoring the core problem of what is causing high-scaling specs to overperform: Development based class balance. If Aug didn’t exist, ever again, and the game was unchanged permanently but no aug - Spriest/Fmage would still be the top 2 dominant most meta classes in game, but now groups would bring a Havoc DH for debuffs. You still do not get a group spot, because 66% of the group-spots are guaranteed to the best two meta classes in the game, and that doesn’t change with Aug nerfs. It changes with balance passes to reduce the gap in #1 and #24 in dps output.

Frankly, and belligerently not true. Aug doomers love to insist Aug is the problem, but miss the forest for the trees.

As I said prior:

These classes are already the best dps classes in the entire game with a small-end margin/median at 8% gap. Eight ENTIRE percent between 1/2, and 4/5. Gap between #1 and #24? Nearly 55%. These numbers are without Aug Evoker involved.

The reality is classes who used to get the sympathy invite for groups as the non-meta flex just don’t have a place any more - and it’s a lot easier to rage at Aug Evoker over that than it is to realize your class is flat out not as viable as the other 66% of dps spots available. If it was, you would be invited; but it’s not.

I would love for balance to be readdressed, and class output to be significantly brought in line in terms of damage output/utility/button bloat. That’s the problem here; not Aug. If every class did identical dps, with identical utility Aug would affect everyone equally but it doesn’t. It makes the classes that are already the best even better. Nerfing Aug doesn’t stop Fmage/Spriest/Hpal/Gdruid from being the best in their respective slots. You could bury the class, and it would be the same 4 as prior but with a havoc DH instead.

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I used to feel the same way you do. I remember just wishing my one spec I played would get buffed to where it was as good as xyz. But then I actually decided to get over the fear, laziness and uncomfortable feeling of playing something new. Now that I’m on the other side of it, I simply can’t relate to people crying about the meta anymore.

If you’re proficient with a handful of classes or specs, chances are you’ll always have something that is viable. You don’t have to play the absolute best specs, you just can’t be stupid about what you learn to play. Be diversified.

You know groups are going to need a lust, brez, and lately, 2 ranged specs. So why are you crying every tier/expansion that your warrior still isn’t getting buffed to oblivion? Or your rogue isn’t first choice?

If more people stopped crying about the meta and just tried something new, they might perhaps have some fun.

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Wait, you’re saying the highest live server key timed right now this season without an aug and without a bear is a 24? There’s no way that’s even close to right.

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I think he’s looking at the PTR data that’s up on RIO for S3. Cause in the BTM section of RIO, people are doing +29s.

There’s still a +4 gap between BTM’s highest keys and the highest keys done by Exodia though.

Literally everything you listed there except 2p/4p scales insanely well with Agility and thus Ebon Might.

In the graph I posted earlier, which breaks down classes based on their playrate, the only spec that came close to being called dominant pre-Aug was Shadow.

The graph is pretty old and most exodia specs have seen pretty heavy nerfs since then. There is no reason to think that Exodia would simply slot in Havoc DH and continue the same level of dominance in the theoretical scenario that Aug got deleted.

If you look at logs of keys on WCL, the true shape of Aug power shows. It is doing as much damage as Fire and Shadow (often more than Shadow) and while it’s contributions to group survivability aren’t fully shown, it shows increased healing/absorbs caused by Ebon Might but not the reduced damage caused by increases to Ironfur or Blistering Scales, it’s still providing more off-healing than Shadow.

Fact of the matter is, Exodia is a heavily synergistic comp that requires Augment to work. The comp would be fine if you dropped Aug, but it wouldn’t be anywhere close to as dominant as it currently is. Augment would be the last spec you dropped from the comp, not the first.

And you can see this in RIO rankings.

Bear is the first spec dropped. The highest comp that isn’t pure Exodia runs Aug, Holy, Fire and Shadow. It is at Rank 54 on All Runs.

At Rank 395, we have a non-Exodia comp. It runs VDH, Disc, Fire, Aug and Boomkin.

Then at 449 we drop a Fire Mage for a Sub Rogue. By here we’ve swapped out every part of Exodia comp except Aug. At this point it becomes reasonably common to see Fire/Shadow swapped out for stuff like Enhancement, Havoc, Balance and so on though it seems that Shadow is typically the first to be dropped.

So far I’ve scrolled through the top 1000 runs and the ONE thing they all have in common is having an Augmentation Evoker.

I scrolled through the next 2000 and again, that doesn’t change. I could keep scrolling but I don’t see a point. When you filter through the data for +30’s, Augment has a literal perfect 100% representation.

I don’t think it’s unlikely that the highest timed key without an Aug is a BTM Key specifically because they cannot run an Aug.

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In general I agree.

But if their goal is pushing keys as high as they can, that’s not elitist. That’s just their goal. They could be elitist about it, but that’s them, not their goal. Their goal could be collecting mogs or mounts. But that’s not elitist, that’s just their goal. They could elitist about it, but that’s them not their goal.

So what makes someone elitist? I guess one thing might be thinking your way is superior. And one thing that might indicate that is calling other peoples activities elitist.

If your goal is pushing as far as you can in an infinitely scaling challenge then eventually that 0.0001% is going to matter. And that’s not elitist, that’s just math.

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So you get to assert that it should exist without any push back but my assertion it shouldn’t exist doesn’t deserve any debate? Doesn’t seem fair. And just because people like something doesn’t make it good for the game. People liked original WoD mission tables, but the economy still hasn’t recovered from the resultant explosive inflation.

To be clear, I’m not opposed to Augmentation due to its position in keys. I’m fully of the belief that whatever you wanna take can work. I’m opposed because I think Augmentation is bad spec design for the game.

To reiterate, part of that belief is because its a buffer spec. And even then, its massively buffing, not just light buffs like other games do. It moves the needle so far that specs that are kinda better then other ones jump into the realm of untouchable. And as stated previously, only certain specs benefit. So those are the ones nerfed to make the game ‘balanced’. For instance, Demonology. A spec struggling with extreme peaks and valleys, which most everyone agreed needed to be dealt with. But because of Aug/PI the incoming changes has removed most of its skill expression and turned it into a shadowbolt turret, with part of the reason being it so perfectly lined up with Aug CDs.

Another reason is the survivability it provides. Mechanics that groups struggle on (especially the healer) can be almost nullified with an Aug in the group. And then changes like the incoming healer adjustments occur that, while yes I also thought CDs were a touch too powerful for heals and would like a touch more spot healing, push healers to almost oom every other fight and have to entirely focus on spot healing. Which makes something like Aug perfect to fill in the that slot of dps and healing, making it easier for the healer doing all the spot healing. But still taking their job from them, and ruining a fair bit of the fun parts of being healer. The game again broken to fit Aug/Supports.

Then theres the utility it brings. I don’t think anyone can refute the large kit it brings, as that kit is what makes groups capable of surviving to such high keys. But given how buffing has broken some dps classes, and it takes part of healers identity, I have to presume the utility is another angle that will eventually be consumed within Support. If we’re gonna have more Support classes, then what a support class is is gonna need to be more clearly defined. Utility is an easy way to do that, to give support specs the abilities dps/tanks used to have so all they do is damage and threat aggro while the support gets all the off healing, CC, stuns, knockback etc.

And going into the future, if more supports are added, how will they be? Are they gonna be buffers? Debuffers? If theres both how do you keep raids from stacking both types to do insane levels of damage to the point of invalidating encounters? If there are more buffers, do they do the same thing with main stat? So the same classes are gonna get majorly pumped and melee classes are gonna get left behind again?

If Aug is ‘shining a light’ on poorly optimized specs, how is them getting nerfed due to Aug doing anything but making them dependent on Aug?

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No, Blizzard does.

You pay them to make the game for you. Your opinion is ultimately irrelevant in the scope of what they want.

You missed every single solitary point that I made to try to create your own narrative.

The specs ranked 6th-24th need to be brought up in line to 1-5. We’ve shown repeatedly that nerfing the top 1-5 specs doesn’t change them being mandatory, and that Aug isn’t the issue; the complete dependency on those classes (Bear, Hpal, Fmage, Spriest) is the issue. The final slot is ultimately irrelevant, the big angy is that non-factor/non-meta courtesy F&F invite classes like ret/warlock/rogue/dps war/etc don’t have a spot anymore to be included in meta comps.

There has always been 2 of 3 spots being meta. Always. The 3rd spot was just up for grabs… Now it’s not, and you don’t get invites… So it’s easier to blame the fact that you don’t get invited because Aug Evoker exists than it is to realize you don’t get invited because your class is 60% behind Fire Mage, and 40% behind Shadow Priest in output. If class balance was equal, 66% of all group slots would be fluid to any class/spec, with Aug in there buffing them all equally. But it’s not, you’re not, and the game’s not.

Blizzard has the responsibility to fix the balance. That’s the end of the discussion. Sorry you hate Aug, but Aug isn’t your problem - being a suboptimal dps class compared to hyper-optimized DPS classes is. Aug could be 100% buried RIGHT NOW and you wouldn’t get invited over Fmage/Spriest. Ever.

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Blizzard has done nothing but make it exist, the burden of proof that it should exist is still in the air and is always in flux decided. Survival hunter was asserted to be a ranged spec until it wasn’t. Demo was themed around Metamorphosis until it wasn’t. Frost DK was asserted to be a tank until it wasn’t. This isn’t something written in stone.

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If I’m paying them, shouldn’t I get a say in what I’m paying for? If my opinion is irrelevant, why am I paying them? Just because you pay someone to make something doesn’t mean you don’t have any right to dictate what you’d prefer. If I paid for a gym membership and they installed a cupcake bakery inside I’d be taking my business elsewhere.

And in your haste to try to shout me down, this is exactly what you’ve done.

I will say, in most every season before, nerfing the top specs very quickly represents a change in meta. Its only in this one, with Aug, where the same result did not occur. But even so…

That wasn’t my point. I don’t care one lick of meta. Any spec can be viable. You’ve glossed over my point, that I don’t think Aug is good design for the long term health of the game. That health, being around the fun of playing a healer/tank/dps. Supports take too much from each to ‘support’ their own existence and are an old paradigm of design when designers couldn’t implement much nuance due to platform restrictions.

We don’t need supports, because each class is supportive in their own way. And the fun of them is getting damaged by Augs existence (e.g. healer nerfs and demo synergy removal).

That simply isn’t true, there’s so much more to discuss. Even this small thread has barely scratched the surface - in either direction of pro or anti aug - and there’s so many more angles outside of meta to consider.

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This assumes a lot of things like:

Equal gearing among these break the meta specs and their mains.

Equal skill playing them.

Spending hundreds of hours trying to perfect the off meta specs.

Actually pushing on good week, break the meta is run on the hardest affix week of the rotation.

Not saying they’d reach 33s, but I don’t think 30-31 is out of the question when during this 1 random week of the season (with the hardest affix) they played off meta specs and did 28-29 keys.

Not to mention all 5 members have to be off meta for it. The highest timed BTM key has an assassination rogue. Not having an Aug is probably the biggest impact.

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An assassination rogue is in a timed +29 this week with break the meta lol.

It’s the rank 157 key for that affix combo which has 1 timed 33, 4 timed 32s, 22 timed 31s, then a bunch of 30s.

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There will always be a meta.

Every reasonable goal to have in the game is achievable without playing a specific meta.

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Technically it’s players ruining the game because so many will always choose the easiest route. But it’s blizz’s design that encourages that.

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Yeah, that’s why I said starting. What was the rest of the comp though?

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