Is the Loa of Kings a “Loa of Patriotism”?

Wyrmrest Accord
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So, in this other MMO I play one of the big plot points is that there was this ritual desperate people could perform that summons a “Primal”: a twisted avatar of their god(s) to fight for them, fueled by their faith. This almost always ended up destroying not just their enemies but the people who casted the ritual as well. It was kind of like a sinister, twisted version of the relationship between WoW’s trolls and their Loa!

But then in the most recent expansion a very modern, “civilized” nation with cars and cities, a huge empire, despite having NO religious institutions unexpectedly summoned a Primal! It was a primal of Nationalism, of Patriotism, of Imperialistic pride! That Primal spoke with the voice of their beloved emperor who told them their nation was the greatest in the world, and sent them out to conquer other lands, and give their lives for the Glory of their Empire!

When I got to this plot point it just completely blew my mind (though I’m sure “hypernationalism is kind of like a religion” isn’t a very profound a take for many). And it got me thinking: if there can be a Loa of Knowledge, of Secrets, of Treachery, and of other abstract concepts like that, what if there was a Loa of Patriotism? What if it was fueled by faith just like any other Loa but instead of bowing before idols in the shape of the animal the Loa represents, it gets stronger everytime you yell “For Zandalar” or put on a Zandalari tabard, or idunno buy war bonds or something?

And then I realized that there’s a lot of overlap between that idea and the Loa of Kings! Cause a King is only as strong as the nation he rules, and so anything that makes the nation stronger makes the King and thus his loa stronger, right? Have we ever seen any religious rites or offerings meant to empower Rezan (or any new ones for Bwonsamdi that he didn’t already get before he became the new Loa of Kings?) What form did those take?

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we have Jani, Loa of Trash…

I dont think a Loa of patriotism is too far out there

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Considering the loa in WoW are more or less the established leadership to the point where even the mortal ruler only really does so with their blessings/backing, I think Rezan and his close association with the ruling family definitely cemented Rastakhan as a divinely appointed ruler, if not a sort of god-king in his own right.

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I am here for the Loa of Proletariats

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sits at the bar knocking back shots with the Loa of the Hunt

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trash loa best loa

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rich mon

rich mon needs ten characters

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Taken from one who has a much more well versed idea on Loa than I (I’ve only recently started RPing a Shadow Hunter) Loa are fickle beings, and their deeds are the closest we have to miracles if or when they choose to interact. And it is not uncommon to have your prayers fall on deaf ears to them because they simply, do not care about you. They’re sorta like a pantheon of greek gods. They have their own interests and their own lives and mortal concerns hold little sway to them unless it is something that amuses them.

Some may hold the pretense of caring more than others, and like still others may be more overt in their callousness.

It’s like saying Dambala turned to evil when Damnbala in fact, just did what Loa do without regard for what mortals think because what a mortal thinks simply does not matter to them.

I wouldn’t say Loa are like primals, as Loa do not harm and endanger the land they walk on and nor are they summoned. They come and go as they wish when they wish and fall into the normal cycle of death and rebirth that all living things do, whereas primals disrupt the balance of Aether and lay the land barren with their simple presence. Loa do not.

Nor would a Loa really care about the service to one nation, you have the Loa of Kings, which takes it’s pride in being considered something of a King of kings, but I reckon Rezan would only concern himself that his chosen king is in power, not that the masses fall hand over foot at their feet in blind fervor.

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I want to hang out with the Loa of Dad Jokes

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if you cant find him youre looking too high

you need to look -Loa-

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Oh I really like this take on them.

I also wonder but I suspect the player character interactions with Loa are the exception and the average worshipper gets little to no interaction with their Loa y’know? To get their attention and favor requires a heck of a lot of tribute and devotion and it’s difficult when you’re a lowly fishermon and the Loa have entire empires built around them. It’s pretty fun to think about.

Guess you could say even the Naaru are similar as well but a bit more driven by their cosmic nature for order and light and something something.

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Really, a loa in WoW can be anything Trolls ascribe supernatural power/importance to.

Elune (eternal one), Rezan (wild god), Bwonsamdi (???), Zanza (old ghost of a once mortal person), and G’huun (clone of an old god) and Whisps (disembodied soul remnants of Night Elves) have been referred to as loa. And many wild gods, old ones, old gods, and ghosts are not considered loa.

It’s functionally a title. Some people respect it. Some don’t. What counts as a loa to one person might not to another, or it might be considered worthy of the title loa, but still not "my loa". And sometimes peoples’ perceptions of what does/doesn’t qualify as a loa or which one they associate with changes based on all kinds of factors.

So yeah, loa basically are their own things, with their own various motivations and traits doing whatever. And the mortals see these powerful beings acting in the world as worthy of forming alliances with and being sought out for their wisdom/power. And sometimes these -whether they be ghosts or wild gods or elementals or demons or whatever- see the benefits of allying themselves with all these mortals running around calling them “loa” and offering to build them shrines, give them offerings, follow their advice and act as their mortal allies.

It’s the relationship that makes them a loa.

And just like “loa” seems to be applicable to all kinds of supernatural forces of disparate origins, “Voodoo” seems to be used to refer to pretty much all supernatural practices, both religious and secular. Magic related to alchemy/death/nature/light/arcane/elemental/etc all seem to fall under the monkier and there’s little separation between “divine” and “secular” magic.

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The only things I can think of related to Rezan were the few quests in which you interact with him and I want to say the quest where you uncover massive devilsaur bones that might of had a connection to him but I could be misremembering that quest as being the bones of his mother or something else.

To me, I think Rezan being the “Loa of Kings” is more along the lines of a Loa of those who lead and protect their community.

He is also referred to the “God of the Hunt” which is similar to Gonk who is the “Packstrider, Lord of the Hunt or Lord of the Pack”. To go outside of the Zandalari pantheon of deities, Goldrinn is the “Spirit of the Hunt and the instinct to protect family and gather food”. I mention this for a reason.

All three of these beings are powerful and very high up on the spiritual ladder. Gonk is powerful enough to where he wanted to offer his power to Rastakhan when Rezan died, but did not want to intervene with the Loa of Death. But this still shows that Gonk (and im sure other Loa) is high up enough in terms of what he can do to be something fit for someone as long lived and powerful as King Rastakhan.

And Rezan and Gonk are rather similar. I mention Goldrinn, because Goldrinn is a wolf. Wolves are often characterized as pack leaders, family heads and ‘alphas’ in many spheres. Goldrinn is no exception. He represents the pack, the hunt and instinct to protect. We associate wolves with family, with survival and with structure in the natural world.

While possibly unintentional in their creation, to compare them all still is worth doing so. Rezan is the Loa of Kings. Who, yes, a king leads a nation of people. People who need to have support in each other and remain safe in order to remain strong. They have a lot of things to be proud of. They are long lived, advanced, are successful in trade , art and history and have lasted for many years unchanged. (Much like the inspiration for their whole look being from ancient Aztec designs of their well designed systems and success in many areas in their way of life)

But I believe it has less to do with being empowered with nationalism. I think it is fair to say that the Zandalari take extreme pride in who they are to the point of excluding many outside influences, especially considering they were …well…antagonists for us in the past in Pandaria. There is a lot of pride behind the term “Zandalar Forever” , and it very well could help in the surge of power connected between Loa to Prelate and Loa to King.

Because without faith in something, the “Light” cannot really respond to you. Rezan is a source of the energy for the Prelates, and him being the Loa of Kings, belief in him could be attributed belief in their people. Which…I would certainly hope so. Why become a prelate, a decorated and powerful spiritual warrior dedicated to protecting their people…not want to believe in their nation?

But the term nationalism I think is the wrong word for this. It brings too many negative points for me. Even though the Zandalari have been very reclusive in the past and limited a lot of their interaction with the outside world, often being compared to basically being the snooty ‘elves’ of the troll world, I think we can take a look back at Gonk and Goldrinn again.

Gonk and Goldrinn are both powerful beings who protect the pack and the hunt, both similar to each other in their function. That overlap with Rezan only makes me think that, due to the power and longevity of the Zanadlari leaders, that this purpose of familial protection and protection of the nature around them is what truly drives the Loa of Kings.

A king is a creation made by people, but Rezan is something of the natural and untamed world. With King Rastakhans fierce nature and protection of his people, he reminds me of a father, a pack leader, a person who has the instinct to protect their pack. Their nation.

They are a surviving nation of ancient people, based off of a people I wish never received the fate they did that is so easily glossed over in history text books and are reduced to alien conspiracy theories.

Patriotism is not inherently a bad thing to have and I think a large part of the strength is derived from the pride and love of their own people, but that is only a part of the larger structure. Rezan is not the Loa of Zandalar or of Pride or of Nationalism.

He is a Loa of Kings, of leadership. And just like Goldrinn and Gonk. He is the Loa of the Hunt, and of the pack. Of family. Of safety. Of the will to press on against all odds and the willingness to survive on a grand and cultural scale.

Their legacy as an ancient people will live on, Zandalar Forever.

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To be honest I feel like we can’t answer this question without another question:
…How do Loa work?
We have a bit on them, from certain quests and one particular comment from Jani on receiving power from hope, that Loa’s strength comes from their worship, and shrines-essentially, they get god-like-power from being treated as gods.
But then theres Shadra, who got killed by her own follower(which you could argue reduced her power, but still-with like-one spell.) Shadra, who’s supposed to be the loa of spies and poisons-and somehow didn’t realize this would happen.

And then theres the part where Zul insta-kills Rezan with what I can only assume was a trap he put in that specific location, or he would be using that kind of power 24/7. But still-
It seems like even if a loa has hundreds of followers, you essentially just need one person with the right spell or voodoo-and boom they are dead/power drained/turned into zombies.

And more importantly-are Loa just…formed with certain traits? Like some of the wild gods are pretty old-did Kings not exist before Rezan did, or did he adopt the mantle of Loa of Kings?

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This right here is the best argument for Loa being a title instead of a subsection of semi-demi-gods. Like Tammy said, all these different varied beings have been called Loa, with the title of Loa being the main connection between them all. BUT! I think there is a piece to this puzzle that we’ve been grabbing at but from the wrong angle.

Worship is a legitimate power source in the Warcraft universe. It can elevate an otherwise mundane creature or spirit to something higher. So here’s my theory: Trolls took a notice to this phenomenon and gave it a name. Loa. And over time, anything that was revered, whether they were powerful before or after the reverence, also ended up in the category over centuries of cultural osmosis until we have the god soup we have in modern Troll society.

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Very plausible. Before the Shadowmaw Tribe shut down because of the theft of their guild bank and the vandalism of their guild site by a rogue member, they were actually running a series of ongoing stories based off of that during BFA that were IMHO some of the best stories I’ve ever experienced in WoW.

Since I was in the guild as well, I’ll toss it your way. Hope it gives you some ideas for RP / story! The idea was that faith generated power, and so the stronger the faith in the entity (even if it did not exist originally), the Trolls could will it into being through sheer zealotry and religious fervor.

I am probably being way too simplistic with the concept tbh.

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This is sort of how I take it.

All of these gods and dieties and spirits exist. But the ones that are most commonly associated with Troll culture have adapted to their culture and how the they work and are for them Loa. Some will always be loa. They will also be a god of something or have a separate title but their strong connection to the troll culture makes them specifically loa.

But because there are other dieties out there who walk along side a lot of them, they are also fit the bill of loa, and therefore fit the category. It’s just that a diety like say Malorne , who is not directly tied to troll culture, is still considered a loa for their supernatural abilities, wisdom and spiritual power but it’s not their first title to the rest of the world.

Wild Gods and Loa have a lot of overlap, but it’s largely what their purpose is , how they’re worshiped, how they communicate with their worshippers, priests or culture and what it is they do in return.

Humanoid figures can be wild gods, which is why Cenarius is one (who’s name is likely derived from the celtic god Cernnunos who is lord of all that is wild and nature) and Bwonsamdi who is the Loa of Death (who is also based on a real spiritual being in Hiatian Vodou named Baron Samedi who is the loa of the dead. However, I believe in this faith, they are not gods, but spirits who are created by a higher power and can be of human or divine origin. I’m not going to speak for this religion, nor do I know much about it or have any place explaining. But it’s something to research to know how to respectfully approach a religion thats constantly ignored by people.)

It’s important to know that a lot of the beings (not all) have connections to a real world religion that can help contextualize the what and the how.

Faith is a very tricky and often messy thing. This world is as complex at this point as our own in terms of how they worship, where things came from , who is more powerful or more legitimate than the others.

There are a lot of key elements to what makes a spirit or god for every religion. Loas who are ARE loas and are there specifically in the culture and faith of the Troll have a specific job than a being who is known as a Wild God first. Gonk has a much different job than Malorne, even if they may do a similar duty. He is actively there, Malorne is not usually there. One of the big differences.

Just like how in game , Odyn (while not exactly god in-game) does behave in some similar ways Odin of the Norse faith has. We met him as Havi (which is an alternative name to Odin in nordic , and it also makes me think of the Havamal, which is one of the books a lot of modern norse pagans have since its one of the few texts out there to give a glimpse into the faith. The Havamal was a collection of text and poems and words of wisdom written by someone where it was suppose to be the words of Odin himself, so him being Havi is like he is speaking to you with the words of Odin.) And Norse gods are said to be travelers and people who you may meet but are really gods. Odyn was much the same, he was a man among us, a traveler, who needed tasks done.

So a lot of these gods or spirits, may sometimes be just as normal as people. With awareness as people, but exist on a higher level. Which is why they can be killed. Some, are far beyond that, and cannot be killed.

This is all stuff very interesting to me, and I’ve actually recently been taking more time into learning about this sort of thing, and it’s especially important to know when dealing with in-game faiths!

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I really like this, actually-that faith might technically give you some powers, but being “god” doesn’t neccassarily imply god-like power. If anything, the loa seem alot more powerful when they make a bargain then on their own, which is supported by
…Killing loas apparently being really, REALLY easy.

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Yeah!

I think in the context of the in-game universe, they are still technically gods since higher beings , demi-gods and gods can be sent to…and I hate to reference Shadowlands…Ardenweald. Wild Gods and Loa are sometimes the same and not at the same time in WoW.

But like I said, the Loa who are Loa first have a much different job (usually). Being representations of different aspects of Troll cultures. Trash, Wealth, Treachery, Graves, Blood ect. Just like ancient cultures with eclectic needs and aspects to their society may need strength in certain things we may take for granted. So a lot of these higher spirits, or gods, are there to support the Trolls who may need to pray to be cunning enough to appease a higher up or treacherous enough to take them down. Or perhaps an abstract interpretation of what these words mean.

(Just like…for example, Jani. He’s often memed about for being a trash goblin creature. But what is he really? A spirit that represents the forgotten, discarded, ignored and broken. Which is why a lot of homeless, poor and orphaned are drawn to him. You find what you need to to survive, and that resonates with people. Which is why something like hope, like you mentioned, would be something Jani would appreciate. )

It’s worship and faith, and thats all very personal.

So the loas being physically there, sort of make it a lot easier to be there for all these very specific needs. And…much easier to kill.

In the book before Death Rising, one of the major plot points was to destroy most, if not all, of Bwonsamdi’s shrines around Zandalar and kill his priests. By doing this, there was less people going to give offerings, pray and worship him…which was making him weaker. And would of been a lot easier to kill him and take control of all the souls he had in his realm. (Which of course ended up not happening.)

Sorry I write more than what is actually needed, I just really find this all fun lol.

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As a side note, Jani has a line about getting his first sacrifice from a desperate orphan and feeling their hope, and ‘tasting the power’ in it.
which you probably were talking about
Jani seems to be one of the better poverty care systems, in the sense that opressed can pray to em and he will apparently “make sure the person who hurt them doesnt hurt anyone again.”
Not sure what that entails, not sure I want to be.
Dont wanna turn this into a Jani rant but I do love em
But yeah, it seems like Loa get not just some of their power, like its implied in campaigns
but ALL from worship-hence Rezans idols being desecrated making him actively weaker.
This raises some questions about whether all kinds of worship work, and if someone THOUGHT they were worshipping reverently it would have the same affect as a big
sacrifice…
which will probably never be elaborated on.

Edit: Also, about Bwonsamdi-its not surprising. Not only is he in some ways one of the less trustworthy loa, seeming only to want worship and not caring alot about say, the G’huun attacks until they come to his doorstep, and even then he just seems offended and also makes you give him a million souls.

Also, while all the Loa have different sources of power(Jani’s ‘niche’ appears to be the extra reverence and dependence, as well as sheer number, of poor peoples worship, GOnks is letting other people worsip other loas and also being a dinosaur, Rezan is being king, etc)
Bwonsamdi colects souls. That means they dont go to the afterlife when they die-they go to him and increase his power. THis almost certainly includes his worshippers.
That means that when his worshippers die, he doesn’t lose power
He both gains an extra soul to his collection
and worshippers that will worship him forever

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