Is The Horde Even Worth Salvaging At This Point? Should We Just Give Up?

A lot of the Pro Maim-kill-burn Horde players drop in from the General Forums, leave their bait, respond with one or two replies to the fish that fell for it, and then aren’t seen again.

Erevien is our little outlier. The little demon who we keep trying to swat from our shoulders while he flaps around trying to get us to pick fights with the Alliance partisans.

I’d say that the vast majority of the Horde playerbase who give even a fig about the story are very adamant that they are absolutely not interested in open conflict with the Alliance. They’ve seen what happened both times before, they paid the price, they know the risks. The verdict is in: the Faction War will always punish us, and anything can be taken away by it.

6 Likes

A compentant writer could do a lot of with the Horde as is. Even Blizzard can pull the same trick they do with the Alliance and just ignore the inconvenient stuff.

3 Likes

But if they do that, they have to ignore everything from MoP (maybe Cata) to present.

They would have to pretend the Horde was caught in a time shenanigan after Wrath, popped out for Legion, then only returned now!!

4 Likes

I understand how disheartened you are, it also doesn’t help the story forums are a cesspit of negativity, I’ve been around a long time, it’s always been like this trust me.

But to answer your question yes, it is worth salvaging and It really won’t be that difficult to do narratively it would just be resource intensive gameplay wise. I’ll start outlining the historical challenges then go into what I view as solutions.

Challenges

  1. Tolkien Influence:

Starting with War 3, Metzen really strove to subvert the standard Tolkien style fantasy races into something more pulpy and metal inspired. Elves became addicts, Orcs and Trolls became noble warriors with a savage edge, Freedom obsessed Zombies ect. Still tough many players and writers at blizz wanted to go back to classic Lord of Rings style fantasy, You see it with the obsession with playable high elves, How many Alliance players hate when they have to do anything Horde related ( you saw this A LOT in Cata, MoP and im seeing this pop back up again with Undermine) as well as Horde writing in BFA and how Alliance quest designers write the Horde such as in Brennadam. You really need a strong vision at the top to reign it in or this classic fantasy influence will creep back in

  1. Cdev infighting and lack of vision

I’ve touched on this before but the Horde suffered the most from Metzen’s departure and the leadership changes since. The Bfa and SL campaigns were the result of a cadre of people shoving through bad story decisions to spite prior leadership then promptly cut short because of fan reception and firings. Importantly in the wake of this the Horde has very much been left on the back burner, its hero roster is looking like the Washington Wizards, basically a bunch of nobody’s and its leadership structure is largely undefined and without a clear vision for the future .

  1. Storytelling space

The Horde suffers disproportionately more from the lack of a world revamp comparatively. Especially since the world state has been stuck in the cataclysm; I say this because the core of the Horde’s races reside in Kalimdor which has a few things working against it. (I’ve touched on this before in this thread (The Kalimdor Problem) But to summarize, Kalimdor is claustrophobic in the sense that Horde and Night Elf zones run right up against each other and the leveling experience quickly puts you in the same zone. This shrinks the amount of space they have to tell a race specific story on top of all the Horde races only having a handful of zones between them all. Even then, another problem is that in each zone you already have alliance presence in those zones. It feels bad when you see Alliance soldiers in Durotar or Night Elves attacking the back gate of Orgrimmar in Azshara. This puts to much of the narrative weight on faction conflict. Who are the Horde when they aren’t at war, how do they live, what’s the culture like ect.

  1. Societal Infrastructure

This is more of a continuation of point 3 but because the Horde at the time of cataclysm hadn’t been there long most of the Kalimdor Horde towns look temporary and the horde zones are undeveloped. This leads to a feeling like no one lives there, there’s no industry or towns to explore or a society. Kalimdor has been explored by this point it’s not some wild mysterious land anymore its the center of 2 great empires. Lets see what the Horde can do to build up the land.

Solutions

Leadership and a clear vision

The Horde need defined as an organization: what is it really, what is the limit of the council, how does the council get selected or make decisions. Most importantly what is the goal of the Horde post war. These are core things that need answered.

Then its on to the races, the Orcs racial leader, I would personally love to see some sort of quest chain where the clans come together and establish a High Chieftain but in reality anything will do as long as it’s positive. The Forsaken have taken the first steps post Sylvanas but we need more. While the Darkspear need a lot of love since so much of their development went to Vol’jin who was killed off unceremoniously. The Heritage quest was a step in the right direction but we need their society built from the ground up.

  1. A World Revamp

To do what I said above we need the storytelling space to do it and that can only be done over multiple zones in Kalimdor and N EK. To that end when they do, do it. It can’t be in a Cata style war but more vanilla style zone by zone storylines that ideally don’t involve the other faction unless absolutely necessary. The landscape would also need to be expanded, the Echo isles are begging to be their own zone as well as enlarging others to tell more in depth stories. I would also like to see cross faction questing to an extent so zones don’t need to be shared in that you need faction outposts in areas it doesn’t make sense. This would free up Southern barrens and Stonetalon to go Horde while the Night Elves could have all of ashenvale without punishing the player. You could then use this new space to actually build settlements and societies reflective of major nations. I would love to see the Crossroads turn into a chicago style rail hub that runs throughout Horde lands for example. Also Ports, the Horde is in desperate need of M@@@@F@@@@ ports.

  1. A positive storyline highlighting the Horde’s strength and purpose.

I think takes like this come from a place of naivety and more importantly meta wise feeling beaten down. In universe im sure characters do see the horde that way but its not worth starting another war over especially at great cost. Meta wise the Horde isn’t a super power but should be rebuilt to be one and should make players feel good about their faction.

A super power isn’t accepted as one by others, it asserts itself and protects its interests. I’m not going to write a fanfiction here but if blizzard runs a Horde side quest chain in which the Horde comes up against a 3rd party over a key Horde interest. in which the writers take notes from the Alliance side Jade forest intro and run a competent campaign that ends in victory. Where the Horde uses troops, shattered hand spies as well as a dose of diplomacy and realpolitik to keep the Alliance from intervening; that ultimately results in a positive, very visual and important victory for the Horde. I think this sentiment would start to dissipate.

2 Likes

I want the old Horde back. Nothing is going to top paving a road in the bones of a species you recently genocided and naming it “The Path of Glory”.

Didn’t you make a thread saying “Eff Blizzard, eff Bobby,” then quit a long time ago?

2 Likes

I do not think the Horde could fundamentally be repaired. I think the damage done from too many evil warchiefs, from the realization that the “Old, Evil Horde” peaked at sacking Stormwind while “Thrall’s Good Horde” blew up Theramore then topped it with a whole entire Teldrassil bonfire, from a decade and a half of storytelling only showing this side of the Horde, from the utter ruination of three quarters of the original four races where Darkspear trolls somehow made it out better than the others (and they still made out pretty poorly), from… From just so much. I think that much damage is irrepairable.

That is forever a part of the story of the Horde. How instead of seeking to prove they were better than those who came before, they proved they were worse.

I know some people think new characters declaring a new direction for the Horde somehow can change or fix that, but… That’s just literally Thrall’s story with a dose of “third time’s the charm!!” It’s literally repeating history, where repeating history is the Horde’s fundamental problem.

So I don’t think the Horde can be fix. It can’t be repaired. It cannot exist as an entity that continues this unending cycle.

What do I think is the best path going forward?

Oof. That’s a hard question to answer.

… But I am Alynsa, the One True Warchief of the Story Forum Horde*!! I rise to the challanges and post many, many… MANY paragraphs of nonsense until I humble my debate opponents into absolute submission or boredom!!! A challange has been made (by me I think? Nobody’s actually asking me to do this, right?) and by my strength and honor, my blood and thunder, my lok’tar and ogar I shall take up this challange!!! And by Thrall’s greying beard, I shall rise and CONQUER IT!!!

… In a post later on.

FOR THE HORDE!!!

*it is true i am warchief here now i posted this six days ago and none of you said i couldnt so i am now, link to proclamation, you are all doomed

4 Likes

You would be correct, but after 4 or 5 years not playing friends finally dragged me back during DF since they promised me it was an improvement and not awful like the other stuff. I still never returned to classic though (my line in the sand for it was monetization that wasn’t there original, i.e. the sparkle horse in Wrath would have been ok). Also Bobby Kotick doesn’t work here anymore too.

So fair warning. This is probably gonna be a few posts, and it’s gonna be very controversial at times. Freely disagree with some or all of this, cuz I’m making it up as I go. I also presume a reasonable world revamp would be included that removed Cataclysm’s conflict zones, and this all takes place after the World Soul Saga is done and over with.

If I’m gonna play the Horde Rehabilitation Game, the first thing I’m starting with is a geographic solution to a personality problem. I’m moving the Horde out of Orgrimmar.

I mean no, not really, not exactly. Orgrimmar will still be there, but it’ll just be the “orc city” going forward because let’s be honest; it’s just an orc city. Sure, you got a teeny section of tauren huts and a teeny section of troll huts, but everything else? Garroshian Orc aesthetic. I say get rid og the spikes and chains, give us something between what Orgrimmar looks like now and what Orgrimmar looked like in Vanilla. But as just the orc city.

The new main, central city should be centralized in Kalimdor’s “Horde Control Zone,” or in other words, those zones controlled by the Horde or very nearly so (in some cases more historically than now). Durotar, both Barrens, Mulgore, Stonetalon, Azshara, and Thousand Needles.

Frankly, from a strategic standpoint Orgrimmar makes no sense with its current location. The most important city in the Horde happens to be readily accessible by the enemy they pick fights with the most (night elves) by crossing one bridge or a pretty short hop through Azshara, and now you control two thirds of the ground entry points of the city? Dumb. No wonder two armies have gotten right to their front gates either; it’s a pretty easy road to fight your way through the Ashenvale-Barrens pass, follow the mountains, cross the river, and you’re already most of the way in, with the entirety of the Horde’s Kalimdor lands only defendable by Thunderbluff and whatever forces are already in the area. And of course you have the shoddy little single dockyard with barely any defenses present or support positions nearby.

So we’re moving the capital to a brand new city in the middle. I’m going with the Southern Barrens, Vendetta Point up to Honor’s Stand. This gives ready access to Mulgore, Southern Barrens (obviously), Northern Barrens and Stonetalon Mountains; all Horde controlled lands.

So why else a brand new city?

The Alliance is supposed to be the allied nation-states, but with each subsidiary nation having its own autonomy (though eroded over the years, that’d be the first thing I bring back to repair the Alliance). The Horde is not that. The nations of the Horde answer(ed) to one leader, the Warchief. They can have their own leaders and governing styles, but everyone accepts one thing; you are Horde. Night elves are night elves first, Alliance second. Darkspear are the Horde.

And the city should reflect that. The capital of the Horde shouldn’t be the capital of Orcs. There should be orc architecture here of course, but there should also be an equal amount of troll and tauren and forsaken and blood elf and goblin architecture. I’m skipping Allied and Neutral Races just to put some kind of limit so every other expansion doesn’t come with a demolition and remodelling, but I’d even include some asthetics from them as well. The Horde capital must represent the Horde, in all of its flavors, and I think mixing these asthetics, if done right (and say what you want about the story guys, but the art team knocks everything out of every park, so I believe it can be) will be a great way to showcase that the Horde isn’t a single nation. The Horde isn’t orcs and friends. The Horde isn’t just whoever the current warchief is (spoiler: obviously my hypothetical ideal fix restores that position).

The Horde is all of us.

We are the Horde.

Next post tomorrow probably, unless I get very inspired tonight. It’ll be about a new Warchief and all that jazz.

2 Likes

Honestly I’m gonna buck the trend and say, throw the horde’s sins under the same rug the Alliance one goes into. I do not care at this point.

The horde roster is so depleted and the ones that have stuck around were uninvolved with Garrosh/Sylvanas. I do not damn Lorthemar for defending Silvermoon and not just bending over when the alliance came a’knockin with murder on their mind.

9 Likes

I honestly believe the writers Hate The Horde, Because the Alliance can literally do no wrong. We’ve been Villain batted for 3 expansions now and I really sometimes just don’t feel like Im a hero for picking the Horde.

4 Likes

This actually has been gnawing at me nonstop. The current geopolitical state of Azeroth is practically minmaxxed for violent disputes to erupt. Far more than it was in the lead-up to BfA.
The fact that the factions have remained at peace for over four years under these conditions requires a monumental suspension of disbelief. Like maybe not a full blown war but there should be skirmishes happening every time you turn around.

What’s funny is that at the end of BfA, things were pretty good as far as lasting peace was concerned because the Alliance basically ruled the world by the end of the Fourth War and had a dagger to the throat of the Horde. Aside from a handful of scattered towns and strongholds the Horde had been basically removed from the Eastern Kingdoms aside from Quel’thalas which can be easily contained. If the Alliance had decided to finish the Horde off in Kalimdor the Horde would have had nowhere to rally a counter offensive.
But then for some incomprehensible reason, the Alliance just lets the Forsaken move back into Lordaeron without demanding any concessions and just like that the Alliance’s stranglehold on the Horde is lost and all territorial disputes are back on the table.

You can tell the writers had completely lost interest in treating Azeroth as an actual world in Shadowlands and Dragonflight. Presumably because they were more interested in playing with their new shiny toys instead.

The good news is that it feels like Metzen’s trying to steer things back. Can’t say for certain yet but the Heartlands short-story really felt like “Oh hey, the rest of the world still exists and the major lore characters have been incredibly naive to think neglecting that wouldn’t come back to bite them.”

1 Like

I agree with you.

1 Like

I’m going to contest this, I know Blizzard was pretty terrible about actually showing the world war. But looking at the how the battle of Lordaeron went combined with what we know post war, and a bit of mission tables (which are pretty problematic but can give us a good idea of the intended idea) we can piece together the N. EK campaign.

Despite the marketing, the Alliance never controlled the N. EK in response to the WOT they launched a decapitation strike landing in northern Tirisfal and pushing down to Undercity, but because of the rampant use of Blight they not only were denied the city but the land around it. As well as forcing a general withdrawal to stormwind. This is confirmed by the lack of Alliance troop in Tirisfal post battle and the Cinematic where Anduin and Gen comment on the last of the ships returning from lordaeron and the amount of Troops lost in the battle/ to the blight. The mission tables then point to a Forsaken force that retreated to Alterac contesting the region.

This then lines up with the Arathi Warfront. Keep in mind South shore was blighted leaving the only viable ports that could supply an invasion against an entrenched enemy
being Stromgarde and Gilneas. They opted for Stromgarde, this was a defensive front for the Horde, if you look at the placement of the bases the Horde base is there to contest and contain Alliance forces from moving into Hillsbrad and taking the river into the north. The Alliance won this battle, but we know that the fighting was still ongoing by at least Nazjatar. Based on the post war situation where the Horde still controls the eastern section the the highlands and with the Alliance controlling Southshore in exploring EK, we can put together that by the time of the Armistice the Alliance had won in Arathi and had begun moving into Hillsbrad but had not gotten any further before the Armistice and the front line had been frozen.

The only solution is to reboot the series after The Last Titan.

1 Like

One thing that I don’t believe belongs in any story unless you’re committed to the plot revolving 100% around it is time travel. It completely ruins narratives because being able to change the past is a genie you can’t put back in the bottle to solve any problem, it cheapens all plot development by making everything that happens mutable or fated, and creates impossible to juggle setting elements like alternate draenor.

In the same way the emerald dream is Azeroth without civilized races altering it’s surface I wish we’d reach a culmination of the Murozond/Nozdomu that destroys the time keepers forwards and backwards and gives us one remaining timeline, the true timeline, without any meddling.

No more alternate timelines, we get to play the real history of Azeroth.

4 Likes

How confident are we in modern Blizz in handling something like that?

I have much more faith in Blizzard to reboot the series than continuing it as is.

Because right now the story is so broken that even the best fantasy writers couldn’t fix it.

So if its a choice between a permanently ruined story and a chance at a coherant story that can be built upon?

I’m choosing the latter.

1 Like

Next thing I’d do to begin repairing some of the damage is my personal biggest bugbear, undoing the very moment the Horde died in my heart.

It’s not getting duped by an evil warchief again. That absolutely hurt and the damage done was catestrophic. But the Horde, for me, still existed…

Right until the single most iconic position within the Horde just got thrown in the history bin all casual-like, and replaced by a committee.

We went from a Warchief to a senate. That freaking sucks donkey bits. That is as anti-Horde as it gets. That takes the foundation of the Horde, a unified body under a single main leader, and turns it into a debate club.

So we need a new Warchief. And someone asked who should sit in that big chair a couple days ago and I had no one. No leader currently in the Horde works in that position. They all have problems.

So I got to thinking. If no current leader, then what about a relatively unknown? What if it’s a new-ish character, but one intimately tied to the lore through blood, a character who hasn’t been over-developed, who could be molded by the writers and devs to be all that Thrall wanted to be, but without the baggage. And I came up with an option that would work for me.

Durak, son of Thrall.

Obviously there’d need to be a hero’s journey, a story that pushes him forward into the narrative from a relatively unknown into what the Warchief should be. This is too big a task for me to bother trying to type here, but it’s very doable. Maybe don’t let Golden write it, because we don’t need brown, orcy Anduin.

So we give him the hero’s journey, but explicitly not with the motivation to become Warchief. Just to be worthy of his father’s ideals, if not actions. Sorta like a better done Garrosh, but not idealizing a legitimate war criminal. Then you have some crisis happen, Thrall’s off doing f’all where ever, the Committee on Horde Affairs is locked trying to decide what to do and how to do it, and Durak and some other young orcs step up to handle the situation because it needs handling.

And this is the important part, and probably the most controversial; they work with Alliance forces to handle the situation. They work with them openly, fully cooperation. Durak offers the senior Alliance commander in the situation his advice, but when the senior leader goes with a different plan, the Horde forces don’t get all grumble-y. They understand the senior leader has wisdom and experience, and they listen. They listen, they try it, the Alliance plan doesn’t work. Preferably because of some factor the Alliance leader could not have foreseen. The leader seemlessly tries Durak’s plan, no pause or hesitation, and it works.

This is to establish that this group, led by these people, are not repeating the mistakes of their ancestors. They will work together because working together is what needs to happen. They won’t let blustering egos get in the way of success, of victory. The Alliance will treat them like peers, not potential future criminals or guilty because of their forefathers.

Durak then returns home, situation handled, and the Horde Senate has started fraying badly. There’s no unifying voice. The people are fed up. And here comes Durak, the Situation Handler, with stories of being able to work with strangers (the Alliance), being able to listen to others and follow advice and the plans of others (Alliance commander), to avoid the pitfalls of hubris (not bragging that their plan worked), and to have done so for the good of the Horde.

Yadda yadda yadda, bolstered by the people, we need a unifying voice. Durak then goes through some trials, never explicitly told for what (but we all know), he passes them, the final test is against his father Thrall, a duel, they get in the dueling arena and Durak… Won’t. He doesn’t want to fight his father. Horde should never fight Horde unless absolutely necessary. He will not submit to a test that requires him to shed his father’s blood.

Boom. Warchief.

… I’m not sold on that last bit, but some confrontation between the soon-to-be new Warchief and the most iconic one needs to happen to make it all official and I’m typing this by the seat of my pants.

Warchief Durak. And his first order of business is hammering out an official diplomatic relationship with the Alliance. Not a peace treaty; both sides should need time for that, and a lot of it. But official communications with whoever is the leader of the Alliance at the time (unless Blizzard fixes that by removing the High King bullcarp), so that miscommunicaions between the two have a proper avenue for discussion.

And then that’s it for Horde-Alliance interactions, at least for a while. The next couple of expansions should have seperate leveling experiences, even if they’re in the same zones. The way you rebuild these two groups isn’t by having Big Name NPCs showing up all the forever; you tell stories with them, individually. You tell an Alliance story here, and a Horde story there. They can overlap when we deal with the Token Neutral Group Leading the Battle like the Argent Crusade and Army of the Legionfall, but you still give the factions their own story.

And you use the Horde story to not just highlight Durak. Those soldiers who handled The Situation with him? Bring them in too. A new warchief should come with new pals of other races, and you use the leveling campaign to build them up. Introduce them with Durak’s arc, build them up over time.

As for the Horde Council? Keep it. Second most controversial thing I’m putting in this post, but keep it. It’s now an advisory council, so we still have moments with the Old Guard NPCs, and they’re still important. Warchiefs have advisors, and Durak wants to represent all of the Horde, so all of the Horde should have a voice. The Advisory Council (needs a better name) is that voice.

So that’s my warchief rant.

I’ve got other thoughts, but I’m not sure how interesting any of these thoughts are, so I’ll keep them to myself for now.

5 Likes

My take is that the orcs should keep the warchief position, and keep the Horde a confederation of mostly independent states rather than the weird feudalistic crap the Alliance is doing with the High king role where a nepobaby runs the whole shebang.

You could still promote Durak to the de facto leader by making him first among equals, but with the understanding that just like what happened with the Tauren/Darkspear in Cata, members can choose to not support operations/decisions they don’t agree with or can’t afford to contribute to.