I've noticed often when people bring up issues of DPS with Blizzard, they state
they have internal testing teams, and also mention method, and other top guilds as a benchmark.
This however is incredibly flawed. You have to consider just what these players are doing to get those numbers. First of all they spend sometimes over 40 hours a week practicing, and improving themselves at a tournament level. The internal testing teams as Blizzard even stated recently are perhaps "Too good".
The fact is %90+ of players aren't min maxing, in top raiding guilds farming mythics all day, and working together in a cohesive consistent manner.
Things such as perfect movement, carries, and unrealistic reaction to the mechanics via excessive Repetition.
The numbers they see are not realistic, and are not representative of the whole player base and what they will experience. (Analogy time, be warned)
It's like getting tony hawk to design a skateboard perfect for his skill in his prime, and his absolute ability. Then sell those boards to regular kids, and the general public. the board would tilt way too easily, it would bend too much probably, and even have strange designs built around the top skill.
If you then take Skateboard A which represents the default, and compare it to B from tony it would be two completely different experiences. This can apply to just about anything in life.
Another example, You give two computer kits two someone new. Give them one based around the vat majority in terms of ability and skill, and give him one that is based around Linus tech tips and other advanced builders. He'll have no idea how to set up custom water loops, or even how to set up a raid configuration. He will only be able to install the basic components and cause a huge bottleneck on the systems supposed performance.
My analogy isn't the best, but you get the point.
"but ele does good in mythics with top gear"
So a class should be designed, buffed, and nerfed based on what it can do once it's already got near current BIS? lol.. That's ludicrous.
Blizzard, I Found a solution. Start looking at the middle of the pact, and then the end. And come to conclusion from there. If an ability can be strong at the middle, and not strong enough at the end? then make it benefit from a stat more to compensate. That way they are always just as strong, and will be at the end.
Either way, I think the game needs to be based off actual regular players, not MLG players and pro's working in the office. Your data is based off unrealistic situations give or take a few.
Balance doesn't matter for the middle of the pack
10/27/2018 07:20 AMPosted by FelikksBalance doesn't matter for the middle of the pack
"middle of the pact, and then the end"
this covers the classes strength while being played decently, and also while being played perfectly. This would give them a good balance, and scale to work with to come to a middle ground.
Stop, just stop. Casuals ruined this game the last thing we need is to take anymore advice from casual players. The game isn't based off of elite players it's based off of the numbers they generate from the player base.
Well, classes are based around Mythic raids and high end Mythic + content
Whiiiiiiiiich
Leaves out at least, 95% of the playerbase
So yeah.
Whiiiiiiiiich
Leaves out at least, 95% of the playerbase
So yeah.
Balance should always be started around playing something optimally, and worked on from there.
You should always first look at "how will this work if its played at the highest skill level", then try to apply it to lower skill caps later. Not the reverse.
You should always first look at "how will this work if its played at the highest skill level", then try to apply it to lower skill caps later. Not the reverse.
The game is made for the 99%... the 99% who will follow what the 3% says to a T and the 99% who would leave their own mothers in the dust if it meant eeking out that 1% dps or efficiency because the methods in the game are doing it way X.
The main reason why classes have to be balanced around top level play is simply that for mid-level players skill matters much more than class balance so it's impossible to balance around this.
10/27/2018 11:46 AMPosted by ÐreamsStop, just stop. Casuals ruined this game the last thing we need is to take anymore advice from casual players. The game isn't based off of elite players it's based off of the numbers they generate from the player base.
Lol, I'll be honest. It's people like you with that hostile attitude that turn most new players away. If there's one thing that's going to kill this game is toxic dirtbags like you yelling at new players.
The reason why Blizzard is putting systems in place so that player interaction isn't completely necessary at the start is so new players don't have to experience interacting with YOU right away, give them a bit to get hooked with the game before coming face to face with the garbage community.
But sadly it's a losing fight, you degenerates and your toxic bile make the community worse and worse each week. Look at Asmongold ffs and tell me his antics are good for the game.
Blizzard likely has data from all across the playerbase due to having access to you know...the servers and such. That said, Akston's point is probably on par. They have to design a class with the consideration of how it's going to be played near the top of the skill cap and make sure that there should still have options that aren't too far behind via talents (cause lets face it "unplayable" talents to top end may only be whats >1% behind the top combo and wouldn't actually be behind for a player who'd mess up a higher skill cap talent setup).
If you tried to design a class for the worst possible player or what the actual middle is, you'd find yourself constantly surprised. Consider that the folks who even queue into LFR are still in the minority compared to the total playerbase. You likely couldn't realistically do it and still have something that played well, and that's in comparison to what we see these days (and I'm well aware classes these days aren't in all of their best states).
The main playerbase you interact with are still a small slice of the game, consider there are still millions subbed and Discord communities are only 10's of thousands with ton of overlap between them, the busiest megathread for the Reddit classes recently was 90k views over the course of a week, etc.
Really, a designers focus should be on the design of the class and tuning/balance is always something that comes later. It's not likely the absolute tops of skill ceiling play is even what is considered (so your world top 10 players) when looking at tuning in most classes, but I'm not sure. I might be able to bug someone at Blizzcon this week, but I'm not sure how much I really want to bug them about that sort of thing while they're off the clock and we're supposed to be drinking or something.
If you tried to design a class for the worst possible player or what the actual middle is, you'd find yourself constantly surprised. Consider that the folks who even queue into LFR are still in the minority compared to the total playerbase. You likely couldn't realistically do it and still have something that played well, and that's in comparison to what we see these days (and I'm well aware classes these days aren't in all of their best states).
The main playerbase you interact with are still a small slice of the game, consider there are still millions subbed and Discord communities are only 10's of thousands with ton of overlap between them, the busiest megathread for the Reddit classes recently was 90k views over the course of a week, etc.
Really, a designers focus should be on the design of the class and tuning/balance is always something that comes later. It's not likely the absolute tops of skill ceiling play is even what is considered (so your world top 10 players) when looking at tuning in most classes, but I'm not sure. I might be able to bug someone at Blizzcon this week, but I'm not sure how much I really want to bug them about that sort of thing while they're off the clock and we're supposed to be drinking or something.
10/27/2018 11:46 AMPosted by ÐreamsStop, just stop. Casuals ruined this game the last thing we need is to take anymore advice from casual players. The game isn't based off of elite players it's based off of the numbers they generate from the player base.
Some of us Casuals use to be Hardcore raiders that spent 60-80 hours a week and raiding 6 days a week before many of you even were old enough to play the game. Keep your narrow views to yourself.
Hey Meguma.. this is the Shaman page. I believe you posted this in the wrong thread. While I believe you do have a valid point - your post has no relevance to Shamans.
10/27/2018 11:46 AMPosted by ÐreamsCasuals ruined this game
Spare us this garbage. Blizzard ruined this game with their bad design decisions and focus on the bottom line. ($$)
10/30/2018 04:42 AMPosted by Orangesilk10/27/2018 11:46 AMPosted by ÐreamsStop, just stop. Casuals ruined this game the last thing we need is to take anymore advice from casual players. The game isn't based off of elite players it's based off of the numbers they generate from the player base.
Lol, I'll be honest. It's people like you with that hostile attitude that turn most new players away. If there's one thing that's going to kill this game is toxic dirtbags like you yelling at new players.
The reason why Blizzard is putting systems in place so that player interaction isn't completely necessary at the start is so new players don't have to experience interacting with YOU right away, give them a bit to get hooked with the game before coming face to face with the garbage community.
But sadly it's a losing fight, you degenerates and your toxic bile make the community worse and worse each week. Look at Asmongold ffs and tell me his antics are good for the game.
H o l y f u c c
10/10
It’s simple really. The end game content is what matters. The competitive level is where everything should be balanced. If you choose not to be in that competitive bracket then you got no room to complain about balance and quite frankly the whole issue is then moot.
The question is simple. If class mechanics are modeled on the 3% why cant you do the same?
You roll the same class? You have the same abilities? I'm assuming you have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs? So why cant you do the same dps?
I will tell you, you are lazy!
You cant merely hit 120 then expect to be doing 20k dps. You have to work for it, get the gear, min max, refine your rotation.
If blizzard set the expectation of a class based on middle of the pack. The game would be so unbalanced
You roll the same class? You have the same abilities? I'm assuming you have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs? So why cant you do the same dps?
I will tell you, you are lazy!
You cant merely hit 120 then expect to be doing 20k dps. You have to work for it, get the gear, min max, refine your rotation.
If blizzard set the expectation of a class based on middle of the pack. The game would be so unbalanced
I can't tell if people here are defending blizzards class design or the fact shamans still do garbage dps, either way, you're wrong on both fronts.
If you're 10 ilvls above someone and still doing slightly less dmg than them, there is a problem. Yay I can do 20k+ during burst phase, but so can every other dps, the issue is we don't just fall off, we get cratered after burst phase. We become useless and just overglorified "utility".
And the changes coming don't even address the issues at all, we are still weak. Doesn't makes sense to start from scratch every expansion when they have issues with class balance the whole expansion.
If you're 10 ilvls above someone and still doing slightly less dmg than them, there is a problem. Yay I can do 20k+ during burst phase, but so can every other dps, the issue is we don't just fall off, we get cratered after burst phase. We become useless and just overglorified "utility".
And the changes coming don't even address the issues at all, we are still weak. Doesn't makes sense to start from scratch every expansion when they have issues with class balance the whole expansion.