Is Survival gutted as badly on the 11.0.5 ptr as it appears?

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Altani-mannoroth

100% of its own damage done in the hit itself

Sorry, I interpreted that wrong. I thought you were saying Butchery was used for its own damage. Since it’s so weak I didn’t realize people cared about the current iteration.

@Altani-mannoroth

I like it being busy. I want it more busy.

It’s GCD locked, it can’t realistically be more busy. Have you ever played Outlaw? I think you would like that. 0.8 GCD.

@Altani-mannoroth

Your damage contributed by Butchery isn’t likely to shift, but it will, for anyone who enjoys more busyness, control, or nuance, etc., likely feel worse.

I don’t really feel that it’s losing much nuance as opposed to losing unnecessary fluff for an illusion of nuance.

Again, personal preference.

@Altani-mannoroth

It’s a damned hero talent.

Huh? We’re talking about Butchery

@Altani-mannoroth

Devalued interaction with Scattered Prey, Wildfire Bomb, and Tip of the Spear, and now no interaction with Mongoose Fury, Viper’s Venom, Furious Assault, Contagious Reagents, and Spearhead, among others.

And then there’s the net cost to other interactions outside of it, likewise devalued by the new Merciless Blows: spreading the Bloodseeker DoT from Kill Command itself and therefore its interactions with Exposed Flank.

Actually makes Scattered Prey appealing

Loses absolutely no interactivity with Wildfire Bomb

Makes Tip of the Spear appealing to use with Butchery, loses no interactivity

In exchange for the “losing” interactivity you’re concerned about, you’re gaining actual time to use and consider talents like FotE and Sic’em which previously you couldn’t

@Vilk-stormrage

Instead it’s being re-worked to provide Tip of the Spear stacks

I think you’re extremely confused. This isn’t in the patch at all. What are you talking about?

@Vilk-stormrage

it’ll directly impact the rotation being performed by SV hunters as there will indeed likely be 2-3 less bombs within a mob-pack opener.

3 uses of butchery providing 5 seconds of WFB CDR each seems the same amount of WFB as 1 use of a butchery providing 15 seconds of WFB CDR.

[Gunrunner-sargeras]

@Pandapassion-area-52

They’re already walking back some of the changes. Turns out it did indeed play like garbage.

What is the weather like in your alternate reality?

[Myk-hydraxis]

Anyone who resorts to this type of things makes me really want an ignore button on these forums.

WTF does it matter if someone type out at LFR or Heroic dungeons…

[Boltaction-zuljin (Boltaction)]

I mean, they did change butchery to a 3 second CDR so that is a pretty major change. dont know if that is walking back some of the changes or a mixture of both but I like that change. I wasnt a fan of weaving butchery but I did like the very active playstyle of SV. now it will be less active but I feel this change to butchery will actually allow us to still be heavy on the bombs while having just enough leeway to now weave in FOTE

[Life-bleeding-hollow]

It’d be nice if they actually implemented it on the PTR :l

[Maila-dawnbringer]

oh, there is an ignore function! it’s sort of tucked away though. click your character’s icon in the top right > click the small icon shaped like a person > preferences > users > “add” button under the “ignored” section

the other person can still see and reply to your posts, but you won’t be notified when they do, and all of their posts will be hidden, so it’s still pretty good for getting some peace & quiet

[Gunrunner-sargeras]

@David-zuljin

I stand corrected. I tried Surv on 11.0.5, it feels fine. I like that Covering Fire is now useful and hopefully Pack Leader is close enough to sentinel to make it viable as a good choice.

That’s amazing. Glad you enjoy it.

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

These new changes are entirely meant to make Pack Leader at least appealing to play

How so?

We went from Exposed Flank giving us 10 seconds of Kill Command cleave to Exposed Flank causing our next Kill Command to cleave.

Fury of the Eagle will no longer gain reduced cooldown from Kill Command resets and FotE crits will no longer reduce the cooldown of Flanking Strike for more Kill Command cleaves.

Everything seems to be gutted with a consolation prize of “here’s some more Tip stacks so you never have to press Kill Command again.”

This has nothing to do with making Pack Leader more appealing to play and everything to do with propping up Sentinel even more.

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

How so?

well, pack leader is getting a 20% buff to raptor strike and a 20% buff to wildfire bomb. with butchery hitting so very hard in 11.0.5 (through its own 50% damage buff and merciless blows applying a very strong bleed) that greatly increases the value of covering fire as more bombs give you more butchery which gives you more bombs.

[Woödsy-frostmourne]

@Myk-hydraxis

WTF does it matter if someone type out at LFR or Heroic dungeons…

If you’re gonna call people bad I’d expect that you are able to raid at a higher level than lfr

[Woödsy-frostmourne]

@Vilk-stormrage

AoE encounters in M+ aren’t typically lasting 240+ seconds like a simulator would run for… so you aren’t seeing the immediate impact of this change.

Damn you don’t even understand how raidbots works hate to see it

[Altani-mannoroth]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

@Altani-mannoroth

I like it being busy. I want it more busy.

It’s GCD locked, it can’t realistically be more busy.

Every class with a CD-less filler is GCD locked. Every class without a CD-less filler still has, when rotated correctly, zero forced downtime. That means nothing.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

Have you ever played Outlaw? I think you would like that. 0.8 GCD.

If I only wanted to play Outlaw, I’d just play Outlaw. Asking for certain abilities to conditionally have lower GCDs or reduced total channel times is not that.

The FotE change, for instance, was a solid step in a good direction. Simply nerfing the hell out of Butchery frequency, on the other hand, was not.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

@Altani-mannoroth

For example, Scattered Prey could cause Butchery to reduce the global cooldown incurred by your next action by 33.3%*.

Huh? We’re talking about Butchery

Scattered Prey is a hero talent.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

I don’t really feel that it’s losing much nuance as opposed to losing unnecessary fluff for an illusion of nuance.

And dispensing with gameplay in favor of a less frequent hit-on-CD nuke is a fine option to have. It just shouldn’t cost those more interested in how, exactly, their damage is produced, their option to engage with such nuances.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

Actually makes Scattered Prey appealing

That is purely a matter of tuning.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

Loses absolutely no interactivity with Wildfire Bomb

It objectively does, in the same sense that trimming a portion of a CD that one does not wish to overcap offers more granularity, and therefore less APL encroachment, than being only able to regenerate a full charge at a time.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

Makes Tip of the Spear appealing to use with Butchery, loses no interactivity

It was already appealing to use with Butchery, just not unconditionally over a cleaved RS (which itself required the Butchery anyways). Which is more interesting anyways. Conditionality is good. Our APLs don’t need to be limited to a simple unvaried set each for “3+ targets” and “<3 targets”.

Now, Nondriel, you’ve made it repeatedly obvious in MM discussions that your preferences in that regard are very different from my own, so we’ll have to agree to disagree there, but…

…Why should a mechanic’s failing to meet its potential in skill expression due to its present context and/or tuning be solely to… gut that mechanic wholesale? Should there not at least be an alternate solution, whereby we just actually supply the tuning required to let the mechanic make as much difference as intended?

@Ghonhir-living-flame

well, pack leader is getting a 20% buff to raptor strike and a 20% buff to wildfire bomb.

This does nothing to salvage the gameplay, though. How is KC-spam fairing against actual Focus management now, in your parses/experience thus far?

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Altani-mannoroth

This does nothing to salvage the gameplay, though

Correct, but Sentinel was hilariously ahead of PL so some triage tuning knobs are appreciated. KC spam (last looked at, nothing on 11.0.5 ptr has been simmed yet) was uncomfortable close still slightly ahead of proper play. hopefully with extra RS damage can incentivize not monkey spamming

@Altani-mannoroth

It was already appealing to use with Butchery

Not really, at least not compared to what other things you could be tipping.

@Altani-mannoroth

Now, Nondriel, you’ve made it repeatedly obvious in MM discussions that your preferences in that regard are very different from my own, so we’ll have to agree to disagree there, but…

Can you refresh my memory on what you’re referring to here?

@Altani-mannoroth

…Why should a mechanic’s failing to meet its potential in skill expression due to its present context and/or tuning be solely to… gut that mechanic wholesale?

I don’t think any mechanic is being gutted, though. There is still CDR with the 11.0.5 PTR, you just have more GCDs to consider other abilities and consider other builds. I don’t think anything is being gutted, that just seems a bit dramatic to me

@Altani-mannoroth

Every class with a CD-less filler is GCD locked. Every class without a CD-less filler still has, when rotated correctly, zero forced downtime. That means nothing.

It really can’t be more busy. I think you should play Outlaw.

@Altani-mannoroth

If I only wanted to play Outlaw, I’d just play Outlaw. Asking for certain abilities to conditionally have lower GCDs or reduced total channel times is not that.

Right, but if you’re looking for a supremely busy spec with an abnormally low GCD, and one is right there…

@Altani-mannoroth

The FotE change, for instance, was a solid step in a good direction. Simply nerfing the hell out of Butchery frequency, on the other hand, was not.

Nerfing the hell out of frequency is a huge over exaggeration and you know it.

---

Going into TWW end beta and early release blizzard was very clear that they agreed that the aoe gameplay was extraordinarily busy and they would be addressing it shortly to make the new mechanic (tip) more elegant to understand and to conflict less with the immensely busy rotation.

I think this is a great step. I hope anyone upset about it actually goes to the PTR and tries it.

@David-zuljin

I stand corrected. I tried Surv on 11.0.5, it feels fine.

[Altani-mannoroth]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

It really can’t be more busy. I think you should play Outlaw.

It literally can. When did oGCDs or partial-GCDs vanish from your memory?

And again, I already have an Outlaw. What I’m asking for is not that. All your comment tells me is that you probably have not played Outlaw.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

you’re looking for a supremely busy spec with an abnormally low GCD

Again, a shorter GCD once per some CD-gated action is not asking for a consistently shorter GCD. An oGCD is not a consistently shorter GCD.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

Nerfing the hell out of frequency is a huge over exaggeration and you know it.

It’s a 67% increase to its CD before accounting for Covering Fire, after which the change is even greater.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

I hope anyone upset about it actually goes to the PTR and tries it.

I have. Again, I like most of the changes. I simply dislike the solution path they’ve taken for that one.

[Europeanspy-area-52]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

no you’ll still need to spread serpent sting

damn, that sounds fkn horrible gameplay wise

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Europeanspy-area-52

damn, that sounds fkn horrible gameplay wise

thankfully you can talent into contagious reagents then

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

I would honestly just like a rework or removal of Tip. I don’t like this version one bit.

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

So you think gutting all the synergy that Pack Leader had going on for the sake of 20% Bombs and Raptor Strike damage slapped on the back end of a couple of random Hero talents that make no sense whatsoever is going to make people want to play Pack Leader?

The whole point of Pack Leader is setting up and consuming Vicious Hunt with Kill Commands which then cause your Raptor Strike to generate additional Basic Attacks from your pet. When these basic attacks crit, your crit damage is increased by up to 33%, and each of these basic attacks from your pet can reset the cooldown of Kill Command and cause your next Kill Command to deal additional damage.

But with a Hero Tree based on frequent Kill Command casts and increased crit damage, you think the following losses are good:

---

Exposed Flank will only allow your next Kill Command to cleave instead of every Kill Command for the next 10 seconds.

Kill Command resets will no longer reduce the cooldown of Fury of the Eagle.

Ruthless Marauder will no longer raise the threshold of bonus crit chance of Fury of the Eagle from 20% to 50% health to capitalize on Howl of the Pack’s increased crit damage.

Fury of the Eagle crits no longer reduce the cooldown of Flanking Strikes for more Kill Command cleaves.

---

Everything we stand to lose in this trade off is what makes Pack Leader fun to play, because these abilities play to the core concept and mechanics of Pack Leader.

These changes are terrible even if they turn out to be numerically superior.

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

So you think gutting all the synergy that Pack Leader had going on for the sake of 20% Bombs and Raptor Strike damage slapped on the back end of a couple of random Hero talents that make no sense whatsoever is going to make people want to play Pack Leader?

There are no realistic synergies being gutted

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

The whole point of Pack Leader is setting up and consuming Vicious Hunt with Kill Commands which then cause your Raptor Strike to generate additional Basic Attacks from your pet.

I am aware, and none of that is changing.

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

cause your next Kill Command to deal additional damage.

An important distinction here is that your next Kill Command does NOT do additional damage, YOU do additional damage to your target with your next kill command. So things like Exposed Flank does NOT cleave the VH damage ,etc

You’re also ignoring the “new” deathblow synergy that Pack Leader has with the increased frequency of KC + cull the herd

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

There are no realistic synergies being gutted

Exposed Flank causes your Flanking Strike to give you a 10 second window for all your Kill Commands to hit 2 additional enemies, which is a pretty big deal since you set up and consume Vicious Hunt with Kill Command.

Ruthless Marauder raises the health percentage at which point Fury of the Eagle gains its 50% additional crit chance, from a pitiful 20% up to a much more useful 50%. It also makes it so Fury of the Eagle crits reduce the cooldown of Flanking Strike by 1 second each. Now read paragraph 1 again.

Kill Command resets reduce the cooldown of Fury of the Eagle by 3 seconds. Now read paragraph 2 again.

Or more simply put:

Flanking Strike → 10 seconds of Kill Command cleave
Kill Command resets → more frequent Fury of the Eagle
Fury of the Eagle crits → more frequent Flanking Strike

Just because you fail to recognize the synergy doesn’t mean there is none, and just because you smugly put a smiley face at the end of your statement doesn’t make your statement true.

@Ghonhir-living-flame

An important distinction here is that your next Kill Command does NOT do additional damage,

Frenzied Tear - Spell - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com)

@Ghonhir-living-flame

You’re also ignoring the “new” deathblow synergy that Pack Leader has with the increased frequency of KC + cull the herd

I’m not ignoring it. It already exists on live. The PTR version just deleted Improved Kill Command, so we lost 25% crit damage for our Kill Shots for the sake of calling the reset function Deathblow.