What got me thinking about this is for me 5pt rips do 18k. 5pt Bites do 13-45k
Without out the refresh from saber tooth is Rip even worth it on single target boss fights or are the points better spent on a bite?
the guidance from the theory lord on discord has the M+/multi-target build with out it. So i would assume sometimes
Unless you go into the boss fight with 3+ combo points, no need to waste 5 on Rip. The damage is based off of time, not CP. so a 5 point Rip will do the same damage in 6 seconds as a 1 point Rip. So, Regrowth >>> Stealh >>> TF + Zerk >>> Rake >>> Rip >>> 5 CP >>> FB.
Bam. 20 second Rip enhanced by TF all off of 1 combo point.
And depending on the length of the fight, you should get enough damage out of Rip (especially if you’re running BT) throughout the fight to be equivalent of at least 3+ FB.
To me, 3 free FB is worth the 1 combo point.
But I’m not a top tier feral either so…/shrug
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How are you getting a 20 sec rip with 1 combo point and no Saber Tooth?
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Are you referring to the new Sabertooth talent, or to not running Sabertooth period?
Sabertooth adds 4 seconds, per combo point, to the duration of Rip. So a 5 CP FB would put you at roughly 21-22 seconds
Now if you’re running LI, then imma have to side with logic and say probably avoid Rip
I would assume Rip is always viable if it is going to last its full duration as it does more damage for lower energy than FB. I think either our SR or bleeds need to be buffed though since like 75% of my damage comes from melee/shreds/ferocious bite which is just 2 buttons basically.
But this thread is about is rip worth it without that talent.
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Yeah I somehow missed the entire name of the thread >.< my apologies
Your math is VERY off here.
I’m gonna do a lot of rounding here for simple math, but most numbers won’t be off by more than like 200.
So just looking at tooltip damage on my Feral(SBT off):
Bite does ~12k Baseline. Rip does ~20k. This is with SotF and I took of my Gushing Lacerations trait from my shoulders.
The first issue with your math is that you’re factoring crit into the value for Rip, while you aren’t factoring into Bite (clearly). Rip ticks can crit, and will increase the damage of the ability about the same rate that FBs damage is affected.
The second issue with your math, is that you aren’t factoring in DPE (Damage per Energy). Feral isn’t about how much damage you do specifically with a given ability, but how efficiently you convert your energy to damage. You get a finite amount of energy coming in, so it really doesn’t matter how much your abilities do on their own, it matters how well they convert the energy spent on them to damage.
There’s a third assumption that we’ll get into in a minute, but lets put it aside to illustrate just how far off you are.
I outgear you by like 20 ilvls so the 13kmin from your comment feels inflated for whatever reason. So we’ll use the 12k from my tooltip. The damage from it is doubled when you spend more energy (and you always want to spend 50 on bite), which puts the baseline damage at 24k for Bite.
FBite: 24k/50energy = 480 DPE
Rip: 20k/20energy = 1000 DPE.
So already, Rip is ahead on its damage conversions, invalidating your theory.
Remember when I said I’d get to a third point that would show you how far off you really were? The numbers above don’t factor armor in, at all. Raid boss armor has been normalized at ~30% physical damage reduction. That means any physical ability used against them will only do 70% of the tooltip (this does odd things with Crit values but its really not worth getting into here, the math overall isn’t relevant in most cases).
Bleeds are not affected by Armor. So that means Rip’s damage isn’t altered at all against any given mob or boss. Bite’s damage is.
That means the baseline damage for Bite goes from 24k to 17k. Lets do that DPE conversion again.
17k/50energy = 340DPE.
That means that Rip’s Damage is 3x more efficient than Bite’s.
Even turning Sabertooth on brings my bite up to 15k. Which when doubled and then after applying armor you’re looking at 21k total damage, or 420 DPE.
Oh, and did I mention all this math is done without the 25% increased damage from BT. Because of how scaling works, the more efficient an ability is with your energy, the better BT will function.
So. Using the same numbers.
Bite: 24k* 1.25(BT)* .7(Armor) => 21,000/50 => 420 DPE. So it gained ~80 DPE against a raid boss.
Rip: 20k*1.25 => 25,000/20 => 1250 DPE. So it gained ~250 DPE against a raid boss from Bloodtalons.
Keep in mind this also impacts Tiger’s Fury snapshots and even the damage increase from Savage Roar and SotF. The more efficient an ability is, the more you gain from damage increases on said ability.
TL;DR: Don’t ever drop rip. Snapshot as much as you can.
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Math aside, here is what I’m seeing on the raiders test dummy.
Method 1
Shred to 5 CP, Tigers, Rip
Which is yielding 24 to 33k (for the 14 ticks ) depending on crits
Averages after 15 runs - 28k
Method 2
Shred to 5 CP, wait for 50% energy, FB
Which is yielding 18-40k depending on crits
Average after 15 runs - 27k
At least with my set up it’s not clear cut. Obviously if you have Saber tooth you Tiger’s put the rip up and keep it up, but it’s starting to look like as a one off Rip isn’t the back loaded Dot it used to be.
Again, since you didn’t read.
The damage in a global DOESNT MATTER.
Its how well you convert your energy into damage.
Even using your (Still likely off) numbers since Rip just feels weird but whatever.
So, lets assume your averages are true. Those feel really off, but whatever, not going to even bother debating your math.
Rip: 28k/20 energy = 1400 Damage per Energy
Bite: 27000/50 energy = 540 Damage per Energy
Its not even close. Rip blows Bite away by a longshot as far as the energy conversions. Its around what I told you. Rip is 3x better than Bite for the global’s DPE
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Well there’s theory and then there’s experimentation.
I’m just stating what I see in recount doing test on a raiding dummy. If your theory says I’m not seeing those results, maybe I’m not.
What he’s getting at is, with 100 energy you get
2 Ferocious Bites for 54k damage
5 Rips for 140k damage
So in one energy pool, Rip does a lot more damage - therefore it’s much more efficient to use (and in this case, not worth scrapping completely)
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That’s a good point.
The other thing I over looked is if your running predator over saber tooth you lose the 20% bonus to FB.
So single target with predator Rip is probably a clear choice.
Are you even paying attention or reading?
Again.
EVEN USING YOUR RESULTS, RIP IS THREE TIMES BETTER THAN BITE
You get 10 energy every second, which means 600 energy in a minute. Over a 5 minute fight that’s a total of 3000 energy.
It doesn’t matter how damage any given global does. It matters how efficiently you spend your energy and combo points.
Think about it like this. Every time you bite, you spend about the same amount of energy as you would if you Rip+Rake.
So what is better? The damage from Bite, or the Damage From a Rip + a Rake + 1-2 CP from Rake? You can think of those CP as “~25% of a finisher”
So for the same cost of a Bite. You’ve Rip+Rake+Made it on average 1/4 of the way closer to your next finisher (which will likely be bite). Which of the two options is the better way to spend 50 energy?
Every single time you bite, you are spending resources that could be used to build more Combo Points and use other finishers. The only reason to do so is if either Rip will not need to be refreshed soon, or if you have Sabertooth.
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Also, as an aside. I really hate pulling this card, but keep this in mind.
You’re 3/8 Heroic on this character and haven’t even killed heroic G’huun (Not sure if its your main or not.)
I’m one of something like 75 Feral Druids that have Cutting Edge. Fewer if you consider a handful of those got in on reclear with their guilds after riding the bench.
Consider for a moment that I just MIGHT know what I’m talking about.
I genuinely don’t mean this in a “I’m a better human than you” way.
I genuinely believe that everyone has the right to enjoy the game playing at whatever level they want to. If you don’t want to bother maintaining Rip and want to just use MoC over BT. That’s fine. Its not a huge deal in the content that you’re doing. Living and doing basic mechanics is going to be far more important than optimizing every iota of your DPS. Oh, and make sure to try and have some fun.
If you want to improve though, its better to come in asking questions and being ready to listen to the answers instead of trying to argue with the people trying to answer them.
Just keep in mind that when you enter conversations about theory, you should have math to back things up along with a certain level of depth of understanding regarding what you’re discussing. Otherwise you’re spreading misinformation in a place meant to help people.
Stop, read, and pay attention to what people are saying. Try to process it, instead of skimming and then holding onto your ideas because you think you’re right and have discovered something new. Not everyone will have the patience to repeat themselves 4 times.
You won’t get better if you aren’t as receptive to new information as you can possibly be.
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That cut’s both ways, dogma and inflexibility in the face of change, which we’ve just experienced a lot of, can hold you back as well.
And finding a better way usually requires a lot of failed experiments trying things everyone says wont work.
As for the original question, I think I agree, FB is mostly useless on single target without Sabertooth.
Next question, is there ever a time you should do less than a 5pt rip with or without SotF? Been playing around with it on trash, and your discussion about efficiency and my limited experience trying it is kind of leading me to the conclusion that it is rarely beneficial to use 1-4pt Rip.
A FWIW, I haven’t really played since BC and started this expansion late.
Oh that’s very true. You just need to make sure to base your ideas in data and experience over just “Feel” ynow. It also just kinda felt like you weren’t reading what I was writing honestly -.-. But rather not really get into that.
Regarding the low CP Rips. Keep in mind that with the change the rips no longer scale CPs with Damage, but Duration.
To break down the idea simply, I’m going to dumb down how this works out a lot. Its more to get a point across.
So. Lets assume that you have zero Crit for a moment and Shred is your only CP builder. That means to get the 5CPs that you need to cast Rip, you need to Shred 5 times. At 40 energy for a Shred, you’re looking at 220 energy cost to apply a Rip between generating the combo points and spending them with the Rip.
So if you Rip a target, and you only end up gaining the benefit of half of the Rip on the target, then you wasted 110 energy that could have been spent elsewhere. Do that twice, and you’ve missed out on an entire extra Rip.
Things get a little weirder when you start factoring in BT. This is where the more frustrating cost really comes from. If you do a 1-3 CP rip, more likely than not you’re not going to proc your PS, so no instant regrowth. Which means you’ll have to hardcast Regrowth to use your next finisher, or eat the damage lost. Dropping form would especially be detrimental during Zerk like an opener or a big add phase where you lust.
So, generally, the answer is “Yes, you want to do a 5CP Rip”. You also want to anticipate when target swap adds are going to spawn (think Vectis) and have 5CP ready to drop a Rip>Rake on them. Most adds you will use this on will live long enough for you to get MOST of the value from Rip without screwing up your pacing.
Exceptions to this would be:
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You didn’t pool properly. As long as you don’t have Zerk rolling, you can afford to do a short Rip and hardcast for your Bite.
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During your opener. If you are Zerking on your Opener. Zerk/TF from Stealth>Rake>Rip>5CP>Bite. Don’t hardcast Regrowth if it doesn’t proc here, you’re going to lose more dropping in and out than just eating the BT damage on Bite. Another Opener is just Rake>Shred5>Hardcast>TF/Zerk to go cat without global>Rip.
Keep in mind that you can use TF to drop into cat after hardcasting without using a global which will in practice remove the cost of hardcasting (mostly)
I hear you.
I was mostly thinking along the lines of a 1pt rip and a 5pt rip cost the same amount of energy, that’s without SotF. But the 5 obviously returns a lot more damage. With SotF 1pt costs 15 and 5pt cost 0 ( maybe you get 5 back, not sure )
So in terms of energy efficiency 1-3 pts seems very bad. Not only in the lost potential in the cost of getting the points, but also in efficiency of the rip itself.
My limited experience in trying to go through trash packs applying low CP rips kind of bears this out, it left me noticeably more energy starved than doing 5’s.
But the point I’ve been poorly trying to make, I think Rip needs to be reverted or buffed. Low CP Rips don’t seem that useful ( except when your out leveling on normal mobs ) so the DPS loss on a 5 point is just a pure DPS loss for the spec.
Also should point out you’re not wasting 110 energy on a one CP rip because you didn’t spend the full 200 energy to get one combo point.
Please don’t take this offencively, as there are times I agree with you in other threads. Thing is, this Rip/Bite use is not a binary decision. As much as I rag on Feral’s design, is made to have Rip up on the target, with the strongest snapshot you can manage, then let loose on the Bites without letting that Rip off.
Rip has its high damage per energy for just this reason that the player is encouraged to play as above.
Sure, of you have a target that’s <100k hp (open world trash?), I’d likely just 5CP Bite it. But for anything else, I’d absolutely recommend utilising the tools that Feral has.
Again, this is not a binary situation. You’re not going to just use Rip or Bite only, but use Bite while keeping your strongest Rip up, as your bleeds are also ticking while you’re doing DD, so you have both sources of damage running at once.
Even in 7.3 where Rip’s value was fairly low, we still need to keep it up while snapshotting.
It’s designed this way for some time now, and as above, the top players run their kids this way.
If it was the case where Rip ended up being irrelevant, causing a playstyle that is not intended (such as Mut using FoK in ST), as much as Feral is neglected, can be sure it would be rectified.
Also, just to mention to move away from the theory/experiment. At the level of play from these guys, you can be sure they’ve done both to push as much damage out of Feral’s kit. While it’s certainly ok to have differing opinions, the information brought forward needs to be understood and considered as from those with experience in the subject ![:metal:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/metal.png?v=6" ":metal:")
As for low CP Rips, vs Bite. It just depends on how long the target is going to be up for. But it absolutely adds some flexibility to the spec.
But would be curious how long is suitable in letting a Rip drop in favour of Bite, in the final %'s of a target’s HP, would absolutely be a question to ask ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")