Is it true that Night elf society is matriarchal

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

No… IS! Still is.

They are no more matriachal than Stormwind being patriarchal. Again, every playable race has moved steadily closer to egalitarianism.

No it hasn’t… First, you do not see massive cultural shifts in the span of 1 decade. Not at a massive scale. Secondly, THEY ARE STILL DEFINABLY MATRIARCHAL!

You do as shown by Thrall’s simple declaration all orcs are equal. Or in how the Stormwind fighting force now counts people from diffrent backgrounds. Near constant end of the world have a tendency of uprooting everything

The Sisterhood of Elune is STILL exclusively female, Tyrande is Still the head of the hat institution, and The Sisterhood is still the sole institution of Government of the Kaldorei.

Malfurion is definately part of the leadership proper. Frandral was fighting Tyrande for political influence back in the day. Just because Tyrande lead does not mean another man could not have tried to challenge her rule(like what Fandral did).

At a cultural, societal, and religious level, women are seen as superior to men, and they carry more systemic and cultural authority then men.

I honestly have never see any lore that even implies females think themselves superior to males. And considering a male druid can go toe to toe with a sentinel would be a folly of a view.

The druids have always been a separate institution from Kaldorei society, even pre-sundering. What you expect doesn’t matter, what definably IS is that Kaldorei are still matriarchal.

Separate institution but 100% part of Kaldorei society. To the point we have several towns filled with druids, night elves and their allies and said town are under the control of druids.

We are talking about Kaldorei society. The Cenarian Circle is multiracial, and thus outside of Kaldorei society. This is a non-argument. Deviant from the discussion.

It only became multi racial recently. Before Warcraft 3 ended it was decidely a night elven organization.

But she is the most significant.

Not really, again many seemed to follow the wild gods/were dedicated to nature first and foremost.

This is once again an argument rooted in sexism. “There are wild Gods who are men.” SO what? Elune is still above all of them, but somehow you think Elune is less important because Male deities exist. Check yourself.

Some night elvens(particular the sisterhood) consider Elune the most important, other dont and especially with how BfA ended I expect faith in her is probably at an all time low.

Even Malfurion one said “may YOUR goddess protect you” implying he does have as heavy of a belief in Elune.

And it does matter. You are doing the same thing again. Men exist, and therefore the prevalence and power displayed by women is less significant. This is an argument rooted in sexism.

I never said that. I have no interest in men dominating but I dont like the inverse either. I am glad nearly every playable race, including the night elves, are relatively close to egalitarianism as possible.

Nor is it rooted in sexism, if anything matriarchies are as sexist as patriarchies afterall.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

They are no more matriachal than Stormwind being patriarchal. Again, every playable race has moved steadily closer to egalitarianism.

False, Tyrande is still head of the Sisterhood, the Sisterhood is still the sole governing institution, the Sisterhood is still exclusively female, and their is still a wide belief that only women can know Elune’s mysteries…

You do as shown by Thrall’s simple declaration all orcs are equal.

And yet Slavery is still common practice in Ogrimmar.

Or in how the Stormwind fighting force now counts people from diffrent backgrounds.

It doesn’t… The Alliance has always been multicultural. Stormwind is still just a human Kingdom, with human troops.

Malfurion is definately part of the leadership proper.

Extended to him by the virtue of being married to Tyrande. Malfurion is 2nd in command.

Frandral was fighting Tyrande for political influence back in the day.

And failed.

Tyrande lead does not mean another man could not have tried to challenge her rule(like what Fandral did).

Tried and failed due to the widely accepted notion that Women are superior to men.

I honestly have never see any lore that even implies females think themselves superior to males.

“a common belief that the deepest mysteries of Elune can only be comprehended by women.”

Separate institution but 100% part of Kaldorei society.

Druids exist in the society, but the Cenarian Circle is not a solely Kaldorei institution. Therefore not part of Kaldorei society.

It only became multi racial recently. Before Warcraft 3 ended it was decidely a night elven organization.

And still separate from the Kaldorei society.

Not really

Yes really, to think otherwise is a willfull ignorance of what Kaldorei are.

other dont

All do.

I never said that.

You literally did. Your entire argument is sexist. It is the perspective of someone who cannot value a women’s power and authority because successful men also exist in the same space.

Just because men can thrive in a Matriarchal environment doesn’t mean the environment is not matriarchal.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

You know what, this tit-for-tat arguing is getting off track. Here, this is all that needs to be said.

I think it is safe to say that I have argued most passionately for Night Elf Matriarchy. I believe that was the original intention for the race, and I think Blizzard muddied the subject for the sake of gameplay, not all writers working on the same page, perhaps an unwillingness to really commit to the idea, and probably some level of misogamy, at least in the case of Richard Knaack.

First, I think it is important we define terms.

Matriarchy:
In a governing sense - a system of society or government ruled by a woman or women.

In a societal sense - a form of social organization in which descent and relationship are reckoned through the female line.

in a familial sense - the state of being an older, powerful woman in a family or group.

I think traditionally, all of these apply to Night Elf government, culture and society. Post-Sundering, Tyrande was the sole leader if the Kaldorei people, heading the female only Sisterhood of Elune and the Sentinels. With absolute authority as the mortal avatar of the Goddess Elune (Also a woman), along with every governing branch being restricted to women, it is clear that we can check off that Night Elves are matriarchal in a governing sense.

Now, people are no doubt going to bring up Malfurion as a co-ruler. So I want to bring up the familial sense of the term. Malfurion, as co-ruler, still does not head the Sisterhood or any other Governing branch. He head a neutral, druidic circle. While I think changing cultural norms are happening (Due to game mechanics rather than realism or world building), I still don’t think this is enough to say the governing state is none matriarchal. Tyrande had the leadership experience, and seen as a divine ruler by her subordinates. Malfurion has that respect as well, but reverence of Elune’s faithful is solely Tyrandes. According to the Warcraft Encyclopedia, it is a common belief that the deep mysteries of Elune can only be comprehended by women, which is a clear sign of a matriarchal societal and familial structure, and giving Tyrande clear cultural favoritism by the virtue of her gender.

Now, I think this matriarchal society was Blizzard’s original intention that they started to move away from for the sake of Game mechanics, and with some of Richard Knaack’s novels, and his horrendous portrayal of women in his novels. However, I think we can expect Nelf matriarchy to make it’s way back into the lore on a more explicit level. Firstly, because feminism is very popular in the mainstream right now. We can always trust corporate America to cash in on shallow, surface level girl power. Secondly, in his interview about The Terror of Darkshore, Terran Gregory mentioned “Matriarchal society”. I don’t think that is something that anyone would normally toss out there in casual conversation, and is more likely a term being tossed around by the writing team in regards to nelves.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

hell, the moment he woke up he took the initiative/create the plans to stop Archimonde.

Of course he did. Why wouldn’t he. He’s is a leader in the society but not the leader. He leads the Circle which then was a primarily Night Elf organization.

The druids, are not under Tyrande and in effect they self governed themselves. In effect, the entirety of Kaldorei society did not bow down to Tyrande.

Wrong and I’ve got the lore to back it up. In Stormrage when Tyrande gets Broll Bearmantle, a high ranking member of the Circle, to go to the Emerald Dream she tells him that Shandris is to go with him. He tries to push back but saying he’d rather go alone but Tyrande tells him “you will not. If I must order you to-” and he relents. In fact a few pages prior she mentions that she could just order him to do what he wants. Tyrande had no power over the Circle as an organization but its individual Kaldorei members is a different matter.

When Tyrande was presumed dead. Maeiv followed Malfurion and not lead/had another female leader. Being a Shando of the night elves means he has great influence and if he was forced to could end up rallying the night elven people to himself. Elune is NOT the only god the night elves follow.

That doesn’t detract away from Malfurion not being the leader. His postion gives him authority but prime leadership still rested in the hands of the Sisterhood, thereby making them a matriarchal society.

Considering there are plenty of other gods the night elves worship I am not even sure it matters. Hell, the night elves had plenty of male deities like Cenarius.

But Elune is first among then all.

the Sisterhood is still exclusively female, and their is still a wide belief that only women can know Elune’s mysteries…

Not exclusively. That’s been retconned.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

Not exclusively. That’s been retconned.

Not true… The Sisterhood accepts males for priest training, but the Sisterhood of Elune as an institution remains exclusively female. This is explained in the Warcraft Encyclopedia.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

It sounds like splitting a hairs a little bit but ok. You’d think that Elunite priests would be a part of the church of the moon or Sisterhood of Elune.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

But Elune is first among then all.

Elune is the most popular but nothing suggest she is considered first among them. As shown by how once Malfurion call her “your goddess” to Tyrande.

That doesn’t detract away from Malfurion not being the leader. His postion gives him authority but prime leadership still rested in the hands of the Sisterhood, thereby making them a matriarchal society.

We literally have Sylvanas targeting Malfurion because he is considered one of the prime leaders of the night elf. The night elven leader short story was about both of them. Hell, they are both of the cover!

“Since the War of the Ancients, High Priestess Tyrande Whisperwind and her mate, Archdruid Malfurion Stormrage, have led the once-immortal night elves”

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

Elune is the most popular but nothing suggest she is considered first among them. As shown by how once Malfurion call her “your goddess” to Tyrande.

Quotes from w3 sere outdated and probably retconned. Since then Elune had been revealed to be Cenarius’ mother. That wasn’t even established back then.

We literally have Sylvanas targeting Malfurion because he is considered one of the prime leaders of the night elf.

By this time Malfurion is the co leader of the government, which he wasn’t before. Malfurion is now one of the two prime leaders of the Kaldorei. Before that he lead the Cenarion Circle only but held sway and influence becuase of his efforts in changing the society. He can still be a leader in a female ruled society, which is what he was. The fact is that while Malfurion was a leader in Kalimdor society as leader of the Cenarion Circle, a group that had no governing or political power becuase that rested with the Sisterhood of Elune. A primary female organization whos leadership has always been female for at least 20 thousand years.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

A primary female organization whos leadership has always been female for at least 20 thousand years.

That depends on whether you’re counting just the Night Elves Post-sundering or all Kaldorei Society from their inception. Because we have several cases of Male Rule throughout Kaldorei history, Militarily, Religious and Governmental.

The Sisterhood of Elune ruled ONLY the Modern Night Elves. The Sisterhood is actually fairly recent themselves.
And not even All Night Elves.

Despite assertions posted, The Druids are a totally Independent Governing Body within Night Elf Society that are not under the Sisterhood.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

That depends on whether you’re counting just the Night Elves Post-sundering or all Kaldorei Society from their inception. Because we have several cases of Male Rule throughout Kaldorei history, Militarily, Religious and Governmental.

I was counting everything since it’s inception but I was only referring to the Sisterhood of Elune, not other organizations.

The Sisterhood of Elune ruled ONLY the Modern Night Elves. The Sisterhood is actually fairly recent themselves.
And not even All Night Elves.

Not true. The faith of Elune predates both the monarchy and the Highborne. They ruled or were the central political body until the rise of arcane and the nobels. Don’t forget that Zin Azshari used to be called Elun’dris. During Azshara’s reign the organization moved from the captial city to Suramar.

Despite assertions posted, The Druids are a totally Independent Governing Body within Night Elf Society that are not under the Sisterhood.

There is no evidence that they governed anything other than the preservation of the natural world. All political power rests in the hands of the sisterhood.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

Not true. The faith of Elune predates both the monarchy and the Highborne. They ruled or were the central political body until the rise of arcane and the nobels. Don’t forget that Zin Azshari used to be called Elun’dris. During Azshara’s reign the organization moved from the captial city to Suramar.

The Faith in Elune yes, but not the Sisterhood of Elune as an Organization, which was only established shortly after the Sundering. Prior to that, Kaldorei Society was ruled by a hierarchy of Queens AND Kings (and Princes) all ruling their own domains each, with only Azshara ruling over them.

There is no evidence that they governed anything other than the preservation of the natural world. All political power rests in the hands of the sisterhood.

No, they completely governed themselves as an independent power within Night Elf Society. The Sisterhood had no Governing rule over them. But they still had governing Powers within Night Elf Society. It was Malfurion who directed the Night Elves to take up Druidism and shaped it into what it is today and was the one who forbade the use of Arcane and kicked out the Highborne who refused to abide by those laws. By all accounts, it was the Druids who established and enforced the laws of the Night Elves; Laws set by Malfurion and the Druids.

If anything, Malfurion being married to Tyrande LIMITED his power as he was answerable ONLY to her and no one else.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

The Druids are a totally Independent Governing Body within Night Elf Society that are not under the Sisterhood.

The Druids who are Kaldorei completely fall under the rule of the Sisterhood.

You’d think that Elunite priests would be a part of the church of the moon or Sisterhood of Elune.

I would say Elunite Priests as members of the Church of the Moon, or as novices under the tutelage of certain Priestesses, or as members of a local congregation at a Temple. As for as the Sisterhood of Elune… Well, its not exactly a Sisterhood if it wasn’t restricted to women, would it?

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

The Faith in Elune yes, but not the Sisterhood of Elune as an Organization, which was only established shortly after the Sundering.

The Sisterhood of Elune existed prior to The Sundering. This is noted in both the War of the Ancients Trilogy and Chronicle 1, page 94.

Sisterhood of Elune
The City of Suramar became the center of night elf worship and home to the Sisterhood of Elune. This order, composed of female night elves, dedicated itself to venerating the moon goddess. The Sisterhood’s priestesses had a hand in nearly all aspects of early night elf civilization, from acting as spiritual leaders to helping defend their burgeoning territories from outside threats.

There is no evidence that they governed anything other than the preservation of the natural world.

Which is an incredibly vague, flexible, and broad concept including a rather expansive ‘political power’. Which follows the concept that Fandral and Tyrande often clashed. He managed to not only grow Teldrassil, but involved the resettlement there.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

The Faith in Elune yes, but not the Sisterhood of Elune as an Organization, which was only established shortly after the Sundering.

Wrong again. WotA trilogy and Chronicle disputes that entirely. The Sisterhood was an organization thousands of years before the sundering. In WotA they really didn’t have anyway political power left outside of Suramar.

Prior to that, Kaldorei Society was ruled by a hierarchy of Queens AND Kings (and Princes) all ruling their own domains each, with only Azshara ruling over them.

I don’t think the monarchy always existed. From the start of the empire the sole focus was on Elune and how she slept in the well, then arcane studies showed up. So it’s more than possible that the faith either ruled or held significant sway before the monarchy.

No, they completely governed themselves as an independent power within Night Elf Society. The Sisterhood had no Governing rule over them.

I’ve said this already. The Sisterhood has no power over the Circle itself but at leader Tyrande does have power of the individual Kaldorei members. Stormrage states that clearly as I quoted in a previous post.

It was Malfurion who directed the Night Elves to take up Druidism and shaped it into what it is today and was the one who forbade the use of Arcane and kicked out the Highborne who refused to abide by those laws.

As a leader he was responsible for the cultural shift from arcane to druidism. And created that law, however its the sisterhood that inforces the law. Shandris states in a quest in Feralas that if the mages in the tower to the west did not have Tyrande’s protection it would be her duty to execute them. Malfurion did it once 7k years ago. I don’t deny that he is a leading figure but his group has no power thats just him.

By all accounts, it was the Druids who established and enforced the laws of the Night Elves; Laws set by Malfurion and the Druids.

You’ve stated 1 law, and how could that enforce then if they were sleep? Also where is it stated that Tyrande wasd not also in on the decision to ban arcane? Prior to the sundering she already had an aversion to it.

The Druids who are Kaldorei completely fall under the rule of the Sisterhood.

And that’s the difference between the organization and its individual members.

Which is an incredibly vague, flexible, and broad concept including a rather expansive ‘political power’.

Maybe but gamepedia says

Named in honor of the demigod Cenarius, the Cenarion Circle ensures the protection of nature and its creatures. Furthermore, the members of this faction act as keepers of ancient lore and pay particular attention to the traditional ways of the druids. In their role of protectors of nature, the men and women of the Cenarion Circle also strive to maintain the fragile balance within the world.

[Kastar-goldrinn]

The Kaldorei society is a theocracy first, i think.

Their religion is what defines everything.
Ever since the sundering, Malfurion has been training male nightelves as druids, and it seems that the druids are not part of the religious structure in any shape or form, therefore they don’t hold any power in the society. Not only that, but that also means that they have been absent for all those years. Now, i will consider that every rule has its exceptions, not every male wanted to be a druid, and maybe wanted to become a priest of elune or something, i think there wasn’t anything holding them back from doing that, but as things were, majority of males became druids and went to the emerald dream.

That means that they had a religion centric government led by females. And all other roles in society (military, regular work, and so on and so forth), had to be done by mostly females. That ends up in a matriarchal society by culture. Also, since most men weren’t there, they also didn’t reproduce a lot, and they were immortal, there weren’t any demographic changes in the 10000 years that passed.

But, ever since the events of warcraft 3 happened, nelves are not immortal anymore, druids are not sleeping anymore, they’re probably working to make a lot of babies, train soldiers to be sentinels male and female alike, new priests, male and female, new druids, male and female.

Ten thousand years of culture don’t change in the 10-15 years of events in World of Warcraft. So yes, night elves have a matriarchal society as consequence of their religion and the events post sundering. They don’t think men are inferior or less capable, or put any limitations, or anything.

Priesthood of Elune - Mostly Females
Wardens - Mostly Female
Sentinels - Mostly Female.
Citizens and common folk - mostly female.
Druids - Mostly Male.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

The Sisterhood of Elune existed prior to The Sundering. This is noted in both the War of the Ancients Trilogy and Chronicle 1, page 94.

I stand corrected. Though the Wiki places it’s inception at 2000 years prior to the Highborne Exile. That’s probably when they took power.

Wrong again. WotA trilogy and Chronicle disputes that entirely. The Sisterhood was an organization thousands of years before the sundering. In WotA they really didn’t have anyway political power left outside of Suramar.

Or any power within either. It was just the established religion of the Kaldorei but had no actual power.

I don’t think the monarchy always existed. From the start of the empire the sole focus was on Elune and how she slept in the well, then arcane studies showed up. So it’s more than possible that the faith either ruled or held significant sway before the monarchy.

That’s a Hole in the Lore. There’s not much history in between them finding the Well and Azshara’s reign. But I doubt the Sisterhood existed as a Governing power at that time.

. I don’t deny that he is a leading figure but his group has no power thats just him.

By that Logic, The Sisterhood has no power beyond Tyrande.

You’ve stated 1 law, and how could that enforce then if they were sleep? Also where is it stated that Tyrande wasd not also in on the decision to ban arcane? Prior to the sundering she already had an aversion to it.

It was Malfurion’s Decision whether to Execute or Spare the Highborne’s Lives.
Whether Tyrande agreed to it or opposed it (knowing Tyrande, she would of been against sparing them), it was still Malfurion’s decision over her’s.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

That’s a Hole in the Lore. There’s not much history in between them finding the Well and Azshara’s reign. But I doubt the Sisterhood existed as a Governing power at that time.

If not then it was a societal figure head. Usually faith based institutions have some power in medieval fantasy stuff. It wouldn’t be surprising if they had a guiding hand for the early Kaldorei.

By that Logic, The Sisterhood has no power beyond Tyrande.

From gamepedia

The Sisters are a major and active night elven political faction, and fulfil the role of magistrates, officials, and others for the night elven government. The highest-ranking of the Sisters are privy to the government’s most important secrets,

In fact I think it was a sister that was Tyrande’s ambassador in SW in Stormrage.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

Like I said before, The Power that females have in Kaldorei society has less to do with Matriarchy and more to do with Happenstance. Male’s Slept for most of their History so of course that leaves females in charge.

It’s similar in RL early Human cultures, when males spent the day out hunting, leaving the females home to take care of the daily business of running everything.
Or a more recent example is during WWII, the men went off to war while women stepped up to fill all the roles left empty.
But just, for the Night Elves, it was on a much grander scale.

But Ultimately, the Kaldorei have a equal Society. Nothing is denied to males that females are not. That includes positions of power.

It’s just that, Unlike how men returning from WWII, Male Kaldorei didn’t try to retake all the power for themselves.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

Male’s Slept for most of their History so of course that leaves females in charge.

First of all, not all men are druids. Secondly, the very notion that women are only in charge because men as asleep is disgusting.

But just, for the Night Elves, it was on a much grander scale.

Not it wasn’t… Again, not all men were druids. In fact, a minority of men were druids. It’s pure speculation that sleeping druids left a deficit of men in Kaldorei society.

Warden’s and Sentinels spend their day out patrolling, guarding and Hunting, so who is at home taking care of things if all the men are asleep? Your argument doesn’t make any sense, and again, like so many others in this thread, it derives from a sexist world view.

You build this head canon to justify why women would be in positions of power, because you cannot fathom that would be the case if there were Men available to fill the role… Despite after the awakening of the Druids, women still held all the power in Kaldorei society. Despite a Goddess representing a Mother being the center of their society and culture. Despite Blizzard specifically using the term Matriarchal to describe Kaldorei culture…

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

From gamepedia

To note, Wowpedia is not a canon source. It’s a fansite that gathers information together, but it is not a source itself. The best use of Wowpedia is to check the citation references to check the actual canon sources.

Unfortunately the paragraph you quoted doesn’t have a citation note, so we don’t know where, if anywhere, that paragraph would be verified in lore.

Though even this uncited paragraph notes Fandral’s role when fully quoted:

The Sisters are a major and active night elven political faction, and fulfil the role of magistrates, officials, and others for the night elven government. The highest-ranking of the Sisters are privy to the government’s most important secrets, such as the original condition of Malfurion Stormrage and the power struggle that erupted between Tyrande Whisperwind and Fandral Staghelm.