And it is every bit as valid as Ashran as one of multiple reasons to cite causes for this war. Neither are why Sylvanas drags the world into her petty war.
Sylvanas is the agent ultimately responsible for the war and it was not why she did it. The narrative is clear on this.
Ashran was not referenced in A Good War… nor anywhere post-Ashran/WoD for that matter. How does the complete lack of mention of something equate to the explicit mention of another thing?
Yes Sylvanas is responsible. But so was Saurfang for willing to go along with her. Saurfang bought/agreed with Sylvanas’s argument to initiate a faction war with Stormheim being a reason out of many.
I was quoted when you made some “reeee Golden” attack…so, I guess every word was directed at me except those? How thoughtful.
You seem to misunderstand the language.
A reason does not equal “the cause.”
While reasons equal causes, and “a” reason CAN BE “a” cause…
“a” reason does not equal “the” cause.
“a” reason denotes one of many.
“the cause” is singular.
Oh good! That means it didn’t happen!
Sylvanas declared war. Her reasoning is why the war happened. Saurfang’s reasoning is external and tangential to hers. She, and her motivations, are why war was declared. She is the dictator of the Horde.
If we want to cite other people’s motivations as “reasons” this war is happening, we can dig back for any transgression. Ashran, Gilneas, blighting Southshore, anything! Tons of acts of aggression unanswered for.
And none of it matters because they are not why Sylvanas started the war.
But it did happen? Stormheim was a zone we played through last expansion, you’re honestly confusing me here, but to tackle the rest of your post.
I believe in MoP Taran Zhu made a peculiar quote…
“Every reprisal is itself an act of aggression, and every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal.”
It doesn’t matter if Saurfang’s reasoning is external, its still his reasoning. He still led the Horde to intentionally invade/cut down/kill/conquer night elves alongside their territory. The war didn’t start at burning of Teldrassil, the war started at the first moment the military expedition began.
It started at Sylvanas declaring war and leading The Horde into it. Saurfang’s after the fact reasoning does not play in to why the war starts.
The only part I agree with is where you say none of the words in your post matter to the subject - since Stormheim was mentioned as “a reason” (not "the cause) in A Good War.
Genn’s aggression and Anduin’s naive leadership were Sylvanas’s argument. Genn proved her right at Stormheim. Saurfang conceded to her when he thought of it.
And you keep on harping on Sylvanas while ignoring that she did not act alone - she got a very disagreeable Saurfang to agree, then ordered a War. She did not order the war on her own with no other Horde leaders agreeing.
Saurfang planned the darn War of Thorns. Not her.
After the fact? I implore you to read A Good War again, the novella goes into before-the-fact, ie., exploring and giving the reader why the war started. Put simply 'tis because Sylvanas and Saurfang discussed a plan for war and both agreed on it. Sylvanas may or may not have been hiding a hidden motive (as alluded to with the whole “beyond death” thematics sprinkled in) but that hidden motive is irrelevant in what actually happened in direct cause and effect.
Sylvanas wanted a war > Sylvanas persuaded Saurfang > Saurfang is persuaded > Saurfang leads the bulk of military expedition from actual army to employing mercenary rogues to invade Ashenvale
Just because Sylvanas might’ve potentially “fooled” Saurfang into a war, doesn’t absolve Saurfang from leading the first act of the war, ie invading Ashenvale and cutting down Night Elves.
Now that i think about it, is also the alliance fault that the horde attacked kultiras , sure they attacked before, but the horde didn’t invaded their lands until now.
but also if the alliance didn’t arrived, ashvane would be lord admiral, azshara would have stealed the kultiran fleet and probably the drust would have killed all kultirans.
Singular.
Liar. “Left Saurfang with no choice.” is what was said. Don’t shift goalposts plz.
Singualr attribution.
Hey look the one time you deemphasize singularity and its against the grain of the language you use everywhere else.
It’s Sylvanas fault saurfang had no choice but to go to war. Nobody else’s. His reasoning is not a factor in why at all. Sylvanas declaration is the only reason there was no choice.
Wrong again, being persuaded of something doesn’t absolve your direct actions, especially in wartime. To borrow from RL, post-war WW2 German officers (and soldiers) weren’t excused from war nor were Japan’s military officials excused either. Both examples are from sovereigns who had a singular figurehead but the military officers weren’t excused from enacting operations on the battlefield, nor should they, that’s ludicrous.
Yes I said repeatedly, Genn caused the war with his rampant aggression.
Stormheim was evidence of that and a reason for Saurfang to concede.
You seem to be confused when I say Genn is the cause and Stormheim is a reason. I am not shifting goal posts, despite your chopping up my posts and your non-sequiturs. I have been consistent.
Sylvanas convinces Saurfang the Alliance will attack as they see fit with Genn at the leadership table. Saurfang thinks on Stormheim as “a reason” and proof that she is right.
Genn = the cause
Stormheim = a reason
That has been my position the entire thread.
Gorosh ordered the attack on Gilneas becasue Gilneas was seen as an invasion point for the Alliance in a flanking attack on the Horde’s holdings in the East Kingdoms.
At the end of the day, the Alliance attack possibly caused by Horde allegiance will be significantly less devastating than the rampage of an Old God/Titan mutant.
So, you take the good with the bad and move on.
Oh ffs. Him having “no choice” is what Curse is saying. I used his words. So gg. You’re right. Saurfang always had a choice.
To think you actually think this is a semantical anchor is really… interesting, at least.
Genn’s actions are a reason. His actions are “Stormheim.”
THE reason is Sylvanas. Her orders. Saurfang or no, the war happens because SHE declares it. And HER reasons are all the juicy dead bodies she intends to make of Stormwind’s massacred.
The grammar of that alone shows how wrong you are.
His actions are … Then you go singular where it doesn’t fit. That may be your confusion.
His action was the assassination attempt at Stormheim. That is the event that proves Sylvanas right in Saurfang’s mind.
His “actions” are multiple. Stormheim is the singular example in Saurfang’s mind. A reason, among many.
The way you tried to create a plural out of that shows how wrong you are in the structure of your attempt at a sentence.
I used it as a proper noun, as it has routinely been used as one here - colloquial name ascribing Genn’s action to a simple shorthand label.
This should not need explaining. Its very basic word use.
You keep trying to boil arguments against you down to a difference between a “Singular Cause” and “A Singular reason among many.”
So Yes, your dishonest hammering of words that dont fit should be noted.
Name them and the times Saurfang says they are the reasons he has to go to war.
Seems like you guys are having a really good conversation unfortunately I don’t want to read every post in this thread, can someone give me the origin/tldr of the current topics being discussed?