Not only in the DK Discord but this has been mentioned in so many other various forums with posts, and even things like tweets time and again.
The PvP modifications, reductions and outdated overlapping changes that hamstring the class or cause so many of the various concerns for DKâs need to be addressed. IMHO they really need to remove all of these PvP changes to DKâs and then allow for a new baseline to be established so that it allows for more consistent and reliable adjustments. Basically we wouldnât see issues like we have now where certain nerfs, changes or modifications are stacking in such a way to make things much worse than it should actually be.
The issues with talents that shouldnât even be talents, that could either be easily baked into another talent or removed completely to free up the various DK trees and allow for better flexibility in choices that actually make a difference in playstyle or add utility or abilities to the DK that they would be able to significantly benefit from rather than the lack of ability to make these choices currently due to the large amount unneeded excess rubbish in the talent trees.
Finally as you mentioned our various Capstone talents are ones that are boring and donât really add enough value as a whole to the class when you compare them to various other classes and why they have in terms of their capstone talents. As an example Soul Reaper should never have been a talent much less a capstone one. If they wanted to make it a capstone talent then make it something like a buff that is applied which makes various multiple abilities have additional execute benefits and does something like making Death Coils or Howling Blast do triple damage on Rime or Sudden Doom Procs or something like that. In essence it only being taken as a choice because there isnât an alternative that is better, if there was Soul Reaper would never be taken.
Funny I dont remember ever asking for Obliterate to cleave, I also dont remember seeing literally anyone asking for Obliterate to cleave
Yep, And do you know why people begged for that in the first place? Someone must not have played BFA where Obliterate would do like 2-3% of someones healthbar MAYBE 6% if you were super lucky
People just wanted obliterate to hit hard enough that people would notice it easily when it was used and theres nothing wrong with that
Blatantly wrong, Besides most of the feedback claiming DK is neglected is rooted in PvP anyway, and to say its not neglected in PvP is just hilarious
Design issues aside, I think the most frustrating part is how consistently both specs (frost and unholy) are left at low middle of the pack as far as strength in both pve and pvp. Due to this alone, less people are willing to play the class as theyâd rather play a class consistently strong like rogue, lock, ret, war, mage, etc.
Iâd at least expect small tuning that would address some of this but it feels like almost every single patch update i scroll to find DKs and never see them on the list unless its to nerf something when theyâre decent. Low B tier or C tier is all we seem to be expected to be.
Blizzard just doesnât have anyone that plays dk or cares enough, this is exactly what ret went through in early DF before the forums were blowing up daily over the state of ret until a rework was announced. People just need to keep making threads.
Not only that, but both specs play exactly the same in that both REQUIRE cooldowns to feel like they do any damage. It is why leveling dk fresh is awful compared to any class, you do less damage than healers without all the stacking CD modifiers and ramp time both specs have.
I disagree, there is one thing that 99% of DKs are on board with: Change DnD. It sucks so much right now. ESPECIALLY FOR FROST. WHY ISNâT IT SHADOWFROST DAMAGE WHAT ARE WE DOING.
And like our cleave sucks
its too random and annoying
why does dnd not follow us like remorseless winter?
why does remorseless winter not replace dnd in the cleave requirement?
why is howling blast so nerfed when its a core ability? This one makes me the most sore⌠like our core abilities are obliterate, remorseless winter, frost strike, and howling blast. But like howling blast does 5k to targets that arenât your main target. Its so bad and NO ONE WOULD USE IT IF WE DIDNâT HAVE TO to keep up debuffs. Its so ducking annoying. Honestly thatâs the main problem with frost dks, too much emphasis on annoying buffs and debuffs and not enough on what we actually do.
Because then it would stack Reapers Mark too quickly.
Because it shouldnât. Remorseless activating cleave means you hold it for every Pillar as long as there will be a second target present. Itâs a bad idea and I donât understand why it keeps getting parroted as a solution to DND cleave.
Okay guess I should have prefaced this with Iâm not considering the hero talents. So maybe reapers mark is a problem I guessâŚ
Why shouldnât remorseless winter replace dnd? What you said makes no senseâŚ
I donât think you understand how it works. There is no holding remorseless period because its a significant portion of our damage even single target. Do you actually play frost?
If youâre fighting a single enemy, everything is the same. As soon as thereâs another target you have to hold Remorseless if Pillar is coming off CD in < 20s because using Remorseless will let your Obliterates cleave during Pillar which is more damage than using Remorseless and then not cleaving during Pillar.
And then thereâs the fact that the specâs AoE damage is currently loaded into cleaving KM Oblits so youâll always want to cleave them during Pillar, and if you have Remorseless on CD during Pillar then youâre not going to cleave and do 0 damage.
In PvE I do; do you? Because we currently use Remorseless on CD in ST and AOE, regardless if it syncs with Pillar, and itâs pretty obvious that we wouldnât be able to do that in AOE anymore if Remorseless is what activated Cleaving Strikes.
well we could always look at both of our warcraft logs and compare. Youâre not bad, but I think youâre pretty new based on what I saw. Thereâs a reason why the majority of us are pushing for that remorseless winter cleave change.
I literally have parses going back to Legion on this character and you only have parses for the last 2 tiers on yours.
Whoâs this âmajorityâ? Any FDK thatâs actually been playing the spec for more than a year wouldnât back Remorseless activating Cleaving Strikes unless theyâre a casual or bad at the spec. You still have a few months so maybe youâll figure out why Remorseless activating CS is worse than DND.
You have almost 20 kills logged for every boss, with most of your parses that are higher than mine being recent parses for a raid I basically stopped doing in January.
And my M+/IO score is much higher than yours which is my preferred content. You know, the one where AOE actually matters.
Frost actually puts out good numbers in keys. The issue is that thereâs 0 reason to bring a DK when you can bring a ret or a fury war (spell reflect cheese) that does the same dps but has way more utility. When you look at details, frost can definitely keep up, just you lose the extra cc, dispels, group defensives, group buffs, etc that youâd get from other specs which is why no one wants them.
More damage could compensate for our lack of utility, but we donât lack the dps to time higher keys.
Alternatively they could actually remove the abhorrent ad hoc current design for cleaving strikes as itâs implementation is one that is completely dysfunctional.
IMHO they should make Obliterate and Frost Strike cleave baseline by default but they can only hit three or less targets baseline. Then fix the issues with FrostScythe and actually make it the logical and viable cleaving ability that hits 4 or more targets to a given number cap this then gives Frost a natural cleaving ability that works in situations where there is four or more targets. They could even move Frostscythe so that it is lower in the talents tree and easier to obtain to make this option even more viable and logical as the default go to when a Frost DK needs to cleave vs situations where it isnât required and the default cleaves on Obliterate and Frost Strike are fine. That one change gives Frost a variable build option one for AoE vs the other for Single Target etc.
They could even then have some of the other talents work better with FrostScythe to make itâs AOE benefit for other talents so that it can be tweaked based on talent choices to perform differently if wanted.
Honestly that fixes the whole cleaving strikes, having to stand in Death and Decay and even having to use Death and Decay in the first place as Frost because we all know that if the DnD requirement was removed Frost wouldnât even bother using it whatsoever.
DnD is annoying, cumbersome, an arbitrary gatekeeper to cleave that no other classes have to deal with (except shadow priest has shadow crash which is actually worse) Nobody likes it. Iâm here for that.
That being saidâŚ
Itâs not the worst problem with Death Knight. We donât have an identity. Blizz tried to give us one as âBig lumbering immobile juggernautâ and DnD cleave design is a reflection of that failure of an attempt.
Problem with DK identity is that every dk player wants to be ArThAS!!!1!! but that design space is limited and arbitrary and ends up hampering the creative vision of the class.
They need a dev to own up and just redesign the class from the bottom up with little to no feedback from the broader dk community until itâs in the iterative/testing/tuning phases.
The indentity of frost players (from what iâve seen) is that we want a slow but hard hitting class. Like it was pre legion ( when the abomination that is dw dominated the class ) and even then our abilities dealt a reasonable amount of dmg outside of obliterate.
Blizzard need to be done with Bos for good, literally 99% of frost problems now can be traced back to blizzard trying to balance this abomination.
We need yes, for Obliterate to⌠Obliterate, but we dont have any damage outside of it, and even worse when is only on pillar windows.
Everything this expansion and most from SL has been to make Obliteration. Funny how when Blizzard ignored BoS and hard focused on Obliteration the complaints about gameplay started to really roll in.
Yes thatâs the trade off for large Obliterates. Gut KM or nerf Pillar and it could bring up the base numbers, but youâd be trading the 500k + Obliterates for 300k max there and I doubt youâd really like that in the end.
